Are Superteams Dead In The Second Apron Era

Immediate Reactions To Game Two

SPEAKER_00 0:07

It's missing the point immediate reaction show after the Knicks have successfully gone up 2-0 against your San Antonio Spurs if you're from San Antonio. I am in shock. I'm beside myself. My smithereens are smithered. Erenes have been smithed. I I am I am absolutely beside myself with that. I guess my first thing, Matt, is Victor Wembenyama had a clean look.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Sure did. I just on the last podcast we recorded, I said that I don't think Wembenyama is the is the man yet until he proves he's the man. And that's what we're seeing right now. It's just a kid. It's a hard place to play. There's a bright light. Sucks. We gave up that ball. Bad shot. He's costing me a lot of money. Why don't you stop betting on the fucking Spurs, dude? I want to see them actually win. I was, I know. Okay. I'll fade myself the next time, I guess. I just I felt so sure. This was a lock, Dave. This was a lock.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

I know it was I think what was so surprising about it is, you know, the it the mentality that the Knicks did what they had to do already by taking back home court. So if the Spurs, which look likely to happen at the very beginning of the game, just started to go up 7 to 11 and do that thing in a game two that often happens where they just sort of keep the Knicks at bay for the entire game. And then right around like the mid to late point of the third quarter, they're up 14 and then they're up 18, and then it's like, all right, everybody goes to bed, right? That's not what happened. The Knicks just would not fucking go away. They were just dogging. And I have to say, the reason I thought that San Antonio were going to win a game late was it was a perfectly timed rally. It came off of a Victor Wenyama scrum, and he did a fantastic job of rallying the team to the point of oh shit. And also, they were playing incredible defense. Like they played some of the best defense on the Knicks during that period that I've seen all playoffs.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

That rally was crazy. That was crazy, man. They were unstoppable. They just every time down the floor. And you know, and credit to Dave, you called it in our chapter. You you literally said, Here comes the rally, and it happened pretty much immediately after you said that.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

No, it happened like a quarter and a half later.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

That wasn't really good. Better late than never. I was more stressed about my More each, but they looked so good. It just looked such a sure thing. Like when the spurs are on, you can see it. Like the the pace of the floor changes, and it all happened right there. And they're gonna win the game. And then what the fuck did you just do? Did you just pass it to Castle on his back?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, but I I immediately have to contend this because where was Castle looking? He was in a perfect breakout position.

The Missed Timeout And Final Possession

SPEAKER_00 3:10

He he he should have absolutely been turned around ready to receive the pass.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

So okay, I I that's what I thought initially, but when you look at the actual situation, they had time to go set up. That's what they were doing. They should have called a timeout right away.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

And they didn't know whether or not they were gonna call it straight away. They didn't have it decided whether or not they were gonna call a timeout in both situations, miss of the second free throw or a make of the second free throw. There was no in my mind that what that looked like was there was no discussion of immediately rebound, box out, timeout. Immediately rebound, box out, timeout. That was to me how you because what I where when did we get away from side out plays to win games? I don't understand. I don't know. I don't know. I I the idea, and the Celtics do this all the time, and honestly, it drives me fucking bananas. I really don't like it. I I know it's like it's like a keep them in rhythm type thing, but to me, I would rather time to make a decision in life and basketball than no time to make a decision. And it's like play. I'm on vibes all the time. Like I'll go off vibes all the fucking time. But when we have a timeout and nine seconds left on the clock, immediately call a timeout. And honestly, that would be such a rule on my team in high-profile playoff situations that every player would be hitting the timeout, right? In that situation. Like that to me, like I keep, I know I never shut up about the 08 Celtics. I know none of us shut up about the 08 Celtics, but Simmons made a great point in his podcast this week. He was like, he was talking to Doc Rivers, and he was like, Look, I remember Doc Rivers was like, I look, I remember when we had two ropey opening series in 08, and there was kind of chemistry issues, and we couldn't quite figure out like certain sets, and like there was this kind of pressure and worry. And he was like, Yeah, they had this like players-only meeting. He was like, But thankfully that kind of came together organically. They didn't like call it, those never go well. And the the team sort of arrived, you know, like they they barely lost any games in the regular season, and they hadn't really been tested. And yes, this New York Knicks team has been tested. Yes, they've been together for a little bit. They crashed out in the playoffs last year. They had to over you know, reinsert themselves into chemistry issues uh after chemistry issues, reassert themselves in these playoffs, and they've played phenomenally, but I have to say, they look like they've clicked, and that happened with the Celtics. They look like they've clicked, and there's something about uh a team becoming more than the sum of its parts in front of your eyes against a behemoth. Honestly, like the Spurs still look like an absolute fucking behemoth in that fourth quarter, and yeah, the Knicks needed a little bit of luck, but the fact that Jalen Brunson can miss five shots in a row, well, keep shooting, and everybody on the team wants him to keep shooting, everyone and then he makes the clutch bucket. I mean, that's a that's a crazy recipe, but it's a recipe for success, man.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

I mean, you're so right. You know, I think the Celtics had much more like actual like raw talent.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yes, of course, of course, of course. I'm just talking about the like the team making itself into bread, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

You're right, you're right. Like, look at the stats. Like, you have Josh Hart out there, no points, but he's contributing in one of the biggest ways on the floor. Like, feed the feed, like I think Carl Anthony Towns has earned so much respect from me after I hated him so much because he just beat him up.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I think it's irrational, it's absolutely irrational because like what he's good he's in there playing absolute great uh play in the four and the five. Like, yeah, he really is.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, one me still had what 29, 30 points, but still it's kind of like a clinic on how they maintain him, at least winning him from running away with everything. And they kept him there the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

God I mean, I think what's really crazy about it is he I mean, I didn't expect Carl Anthony Towns to turn into like a taller, more gritty, more clutch Julius Randle in these playoffs. I I that was really crazy to me. I never saw that coming. But what I will say is it's still nuts how many weapons Wemby has. Because when they force him to what you would call his lesser weapons, like you know, his his mid-range jump shooting, obviously, like he'll dominate the paint. Like that's number one, that's one and one A, right? He'll dominate the paint. He can dunk from the free throw line without any without even really jumping, and everyone's just getting out of his way. And that's probably a good idea, right? I have to say, even when you limit him to three-point shooting and and pulling up for mid-range, he's still killing you. Yep, he's still killing you. What I think the Knicks are doing remarkably well is they're not giving up the paint offensively. Like they're still driving and they're still being really crafty. For sure. A lot of Euro steps, a lot of sidesteps, a lot of smart high post screens, a lot of Jalen Brunson taking the ISO, but like having predetermined options to kick the ball out to, or the and like I said, the idea early of like if all else fails, Brunson can shoot. Just let him shoot, right? Get the ball back to him, watch him shoot. It's fucking nuts, dude. It's like it's like if Alan Iverson had a shitload of good players around him because that all trusted and like loved him. And I'm not saying Brunson has like the same angles and or the same handles or anything like that. But what it is is it's an undersized guard with elite scoring ability and the ability to get to his spot at will, right? That I mean, if I said that to you and I asked you to guess who I was talking about, you might say Alan Iverson, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

So maybe even say uh uh what uh my white kid that was the coach for Jason Kidd. Yeah, or no, Steve, uh Steve Nash.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Steve yes, at least he's gonna get down. No, I don't agree. Steve Nash was like a pure point guard, pure playmaker, early, like wide out, closer to the to the halfway line, sort of organizer.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

That's what makes me think of of Henry Jalen is that ability to be in between the three in the in the in in the down like the post and just hit your shots.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

That's true. I agree

Why The Knicks Never Quit

SPEAKER_00 9:05

with that, but also but also the idea of fully facilitating with the offense runs through me point guard that is an eight out of ten at everything. And the entire and I can't reiterate this enough, the the entire team trusts him so much. Oh, yeah. The entire team is bought into him so much, and you can see why. I mean, honestly, why that's their men. It's so interesting, like his emergence. I'm not really willing to overreact. I have a zag. If any team can come back from 2-0, like two losses at home, I think it's the San Antonio Spurs. There's still a chance, and I'm surprised we haven't seen it in the first two games. Honestly, I am. I think it has a ton to do with freshness and a ton to do with how much rest the Knicks got. And yes, they're a very gritty team, they're a very gritty team, but this is a team that got ran into the ground by Tibbs for years, and now they're like with a little bit of rest and a little bit of recovery, they're pretty unbelievable, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So I don't think if Kat if if Kat had to go seven games and then face Webby, I don't think you'd be watching the same series. G looks fresh, and I've never seen that. But that's my point. Look fresh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

That's honestly my point. Now we're both starting starting to get dragged into wear and tear territory, right? Like now we're and I understand Madison Square Garden. I really, I genuinely do. I think that place is gonna be unbelievable. But I think we're gonna see some fucking unbelievable games of basketball. Anyone down on the idea of this series just because it's 2-0. You want it, I promise, from a neutral perspective, which honestly, strangely, in this series, there isn't one. I haven't met a single neutral. Honestly, no, like everybody has an opinion on these teams. Everybody has an opinion on either New York or how fun it is to watch Victor Weminyama and how fun it's been so far, right? So, or both, you know, like I'll one up you.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I was at a Buffalo Wildways in central Massachusetts. It sounds like everyone, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Everyone had yeah, but like most people who are Spurs, I would assume.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, it was like probably 70-30, way more New York than I thought. That's crazy. People are such cucks.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Uh you're just gonna let New York be in the finals right in front of you. Go sit in the cuck chair.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, go sit in that chair. Now watch. Yeah, and the fake spurs, now watch.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Honestly, did did the favorite team being down is better for the neutral, was my overall. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

For sure. And you you hit the nail on the head. Uh I just pulled up the stats because I know we're vibe guys. We're all about the vibes. But you've got Castle 14 points, Fox 20 points, Dylan Harper 15 points, and Vassal with 14. If if Julian Champagne doesn't miss all those shots, I don't know. This series is not over.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I still have Trick or Treat Champagne, you mean? Didn't I fucking tell you about him?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Didn't I fucking tell you about him? That kid gets open and rips it is.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Trick or fucking treat though. Like he either is doing it or he isn't in such extreme ways. Like he is the Eddie House of this fucking series, which makes me still think they're gonna win. Like he's gonna have a monster game. It's coming. He's gonna have a 38-point game. Watch. Watch the champion 38 game, a 38-point game incoming. He's just gonna hit every single shot. Right. Like right down the stretch. This is what I'm talking about. That's fine though. I'm gonna be happy. Stupid sexy Eddie House. Feels like I'm wearing nothing at all. Nothing at all. What? Who do you have taken the series right now? If you asked me to put money on it, I would still bet on the Spurs, but that's only because of my knowledge of gambling and the way that the you're finally getting odds on them. I'm sure at this point you're finally getting odds on the Spurs, which actually makes me want to bet the Spurs. Unless you do. Which, in which case, because of your generationally bad run right now, I won't be tagging along. I was taking that on myself, you know? Like all those bad UC losses that we took together. I was really taking that on myself, but I'm realizing now that's completely your fault.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Clean one was so bad. Clean one.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Okay. It'll be okay. It's gonna be alright. It's gonna be okay. But now you're playing Uber. I don't think you're eligible. He drove his Uber to Vegas. Son of a bitch. He's playing back around with Uber. Okay, so what happens now? They play again. Not Sunday, Monday?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Monday. Monday inter Spurs by 17th.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, that's the other thing. This is the thing about the San Antonio Spurs. They can just we were expecting in at least one, if not both, of these first two games, a full-blown bludgeoning. What is also happening though? You have to think about this. I thought the Knicks took three out of four against the Spurs this year and they won the NBA Cup. Uh-huh. And it's like, did I think the NBA Cup mattered before? No. Will I think the NBA Cup matters if the NBA Cup champion is also the NBA champion? That starts to become a narrative. That starts to become I've always been pro-NBA Cup. I I I don't think it's like I think it's fledgling right now, but I've always been pro-NBA Cup because I like the idea of a mid-season cup. I think it's my head because of my soccer experience, I my head can wrap around it super easily.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Dave's a Premier League lab, so he's used to a caribou coming in under.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, but like you can motivate the back half of your bench to play super well in a side story. This is what this is, is it's narrative building. I love the idea of a built narrative over the course of a season by a sports team because that's what the Knicks are doing right now. Because they're cup champions and then getting all the way to the finals. And honestly, if you turn around and tell me, and you're not a New York Knicks fan, and you turn around and tell me that you had any fucking idea the New York Knicks were gonna get to the finals and be up too well against whoever came out of the West at in the first round of this playoffs or even at the end of the regular season, I

Brunson Trust And Knicks Shot Creation

SPEAKER_00 14:55

would slap you in the face with my glove, call you a liar, and challenge you to pistols at done.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

I thought they were gonna be fighting for a wild card spot. I really did. After the way that they went out last year, it normally that takes a chunk of your soul away. And it it didn't work. And it takes a chip of our soul away.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Not so they fucked us up. And honestly, if we had been in any way remotely good enough to make it to play them again, they would have fucked us up again. I was having this thought, by the way, about the Celtics, just real quick as an aside. I think the smarter thing to do, and I know you shared that thing the other day about Jalen Brown still in his house. Oh, yeah. I think the smarter thing to do is to with the way the second apron is working right now and the way expensive-looking contracts are looking, the reason the Spurs are the way the where they are is because of the rookie contracts everywhere. The reason why the Knicks are the way they are is because they got one good like really great player, one star. And then they built a bunch of good players around them. In 08, with the bit with the Celtics, we saw the start of the big three era. The big three era been over, right? You want to go get Kevin Durant or James Harden and like put them together. We've tried a million combinations for these guys to try to make a big three since LeBron and and and Bosch and Wade. If you try to build a big three now, it's impossible. Unless someone's taking almost no money, which is not gonna happen. Nope. You can get young rookies or you can get one guy and a bunch of good guys. Brad Stevens could build a great one guy and a bunch of good guys around Jalen Brown, in my opinion, because I think what that does is it covers up his you build it around him to the point where it covers up his idiosyncrasies and lets him shine. If you build it around Tatum, I already think you know what you're gonna get. And I'm not sure how successful that for I don't I I I think that's a lazy take because it's it's such like a thing people say about him because he's like not a traditional, like gritty player or whatever. I think he's unbelievable. I think he's I think he adds to his game. I think he's a generational talent, I think he's phenomenal. I think he's a great draft pick. I think he's a an excellent shooter and a wonderful basketball player. To me, I think Jalen Brown has a better chance of representing the city of Boston in a way and representing the Celtics organization in a way, as much as I've despised everything that's come out of his mouth this offseason. If you can start to rebuild that road, I've always been this way though, and I am I'm much maligned for it. To me, Jalen Brown is a guy like Paul Pierce. You can really truly make him a star in the right circumstances. And people look on Paul Pierce now and and they clown on him for a multitude of reasons. This this weird sort of comparison between him and D-Wade. He's a he's kind of a goofy guy, like whatever, he's a little out there. The thing, the comparisons between him and D-Wade just kind of cropped up out of nowhere, and I'm not really sure who started that narrative. I don't know. He's been largely forgotten outside of Boston as far as like his his skills and and and impact on the game, but that guy like took it to LeBron in multiple series. Like, I he took it to Kobe in multiple series. Like he just did. I'm sorry, he can't rewrite history.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

You're right. And you know who doesn't forget him every time they do an interview? Anybody that had to match up with him. They all say the same thing. Right. Nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

But we used to watch him week in, week out, and it was like what that guy really did for us, I think, as kids, is he made the Celtics worth watching for a while, even if we weren't gonna win anything, you know. And I think you any fanbase would love a guy like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

He was fun to watch even when we were winning 26 games because he was still out there styling it.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah, and I honestly think if the if if it's Jalen Brown one, I know people are gonna hate this. I know that. This is not gonna be a good one. If it's J I just watched this regular season, though, and I and I realized when when we left that brand of basketball, obviously Joe Missoula's gotta go, but if we when we left that brand of basketball, I had less fun watching the Celtics. I made this point to you about the last time I had the most fun watching the Celtics was the Isaiah Thomas years, and we didn't win shit. So to me, you if you build around Jalen Brown and you go two, and I'm not joking, two to eight are good. Not like okay or like whatever. Two to eight are good, good, solid, good, in and out, seven out of ten minimum every night. Good. You don't need nine out of tens around him. I genuinely think you could do something.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

No, you're right. I think that's the model now is there's so much younger. I think that's the model, man. That's my point. That's the model. You have to have a complete team. Your bench has to be able to step in. That's better. But I think even what Brad Seedon is going to be even better at doing if he tries is doing what the Knicks did, where you have a guy like Hart, who's not elite at certain aspects of the game, but other aspects, he does his fucking job. You need players that can do their fucking job. And we don't have that. We got threes and and a grumpy little squishy-faced moron.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

But but I think what I think what uh Jalen Brown represents as a star is very similar to what Derek Brunson represents as a star because there's obvious flaws in both of their games. And if you build look, Jalen Brunson isn't not six foot one. Like you know, like at the end of the day, he's just like isn't

Spurs Adjustments And Role Player Variance

SPEAKER_00 20:05

not that size. He he is a streaky shooter at times. You can force him to miss shots multiple times in a row. You can you can double team him, right? And and I think he, I mean, I think I think he was unfucking believable out of the double team tonight, to be honest with you. It was a like he was see he had eyes in the back of his head out of the double team. He was running for it's probably nuts. But he also forced all the guys he's throwing the ball to, though.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I completely understand your position, and I appreciate your position. Here's one issue that I have that I just can't abide by using Jalen as the guy, and I can't watch my guy, my key guy, have six fucking turnovers a night. I just can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

And that's why you get it's not the exact same model as the Knicks. It's not, it's not Jalen Brown bringing the ball up every night, every every drive, I mean, every possession. You get a guy that's an elite ball handler that's able to work with Jalen in a two, right? A nice two-man game. Give him two-man games all over the fucking floor. That's what Brunson has. Brown doesn't need to be all on the ball all the time. What I will say is, I think he's fantastic in open space on the ball. Yes, right? I think he's fantastic on a fast break, like deciding what to do. I think his decision making is unbelievable. You know what a really good decision maker on the fast breaker in the ISO is? I am and I under the thing is we don't run a true ISO with Jalen. We don't run a fucking true ISO with Jalen. So we give it to him at the top of the key and we ask him to drive it in very short distances. We need to start popping that motherfucker out farther. If the whole thing is get is game planned around him and we can create space for him, when it gets clogged is when it's bad for him. You see what I'm saying? So when you get guys, they can space the floor around him. And Tatum was doing that for him when he first came back, and then we reverted. He was spacing the floor for him. Guys had to go away from Jalen Brown, and then they couldn't clog those lanes that he always gets caught up in because Tatum. And was moving, popping out to the side. You know, I was watching this game develop right in front of my eyes. Like this guy was all NBA. You're right. He was in the MVP conversation last year. So, like, I to me, he just was. He was. Like, we're not gonna rewrite history.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

He was, he's yeah, nope, he was. He was, and and I understand it's gonna happen. I really understand it's not gonna happen. You can't you but say as a GM for your next job, you have to be able to justify letting go of Tatum, it's a six-nine phenome for JP.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I it purely depends on what you get for him. You could have two teams offering you an entire roster of elite players for the level of all-star that that Jason Tatum is and the contract length that he has. We can think all of Chicago, every player. Yeah, but I wouldn't want that. I would want like an epic two-team deal with the idea that we're adding, and I'm not joking about this because I think we could get this, an epic two-team deal that gives us both the ability to build now, maybe not necessarily win a championship next year, but really start to establish the identity. And in two seasons, two offseasons from now, when Jalen's still purely in his prime, right? He's he's on the wrong side of 30, I think, at this point, but he's still purely, absolutely in his prime with the idea that everyone at the Celtics is like, it's you, you're the guy, right? We're we're behind you 100%, we're gonna build it around you. This has been the issue the entire fucking time. You don't know what you're building around, truly. And I know it was a lazy take, like let's let's break up the the Jays. Oh, it has to happen. Breaking up the Jays before we won the championship was a dumb fucking take. It just was because like hindsight's 2020, we won a fucking championship. That's it, that's established.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Break up when they're 24 or 25. That is stupid.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Now it is stupid. Now, no, I mean now you have to decide.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

It's just it is what it is. Just to just to bolster my point a little bit about why you don't get rid of Tatum. Do you know how many assists Jalen Brown had last year? Like totally 27. That's not a lot, then what a point?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Jalen Brown had 27 assists. There's 27 assists.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

27 assists in 71 games played. Really? Straight assists. So maybe it was past the pass, but no. And he had a turnover rate of 3.6.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Jalen Brown didn't have 27 assists.

NBA Cup Narratives And Season Momentum

SPEAKER_00 24:25

There's no fucking way. I'm looking at right here.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

That has to be like playoff assists, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

I don't think he averaged to uh assist to turnover. Never mind. Sorry, it's a turnover number.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Okay. Because he had 364 assists in 71 games. He had five.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

I think he did a great job without hint.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Honestly, if you want to talk about the advanced analytics, if you really honestly want to do that, I think you can present a really decent case for Jalen Brown on that, on that front. Because I think you can make I think if you put the right team around him, I think you can bring that 5.1 assists a game up to 7.2. Right? But would you think that's a good one? And but but I'll tell you what else. I think you're looking at a 33 to 35 point a game guy if the fucking team is built around him. Because guess what? That's what put him in the fucking MVP conversation last year, right? Now, do I if you put the whole sort of like, you know, chat GPT overview overlay on it, you then start to look at the idea of dribbles per point scored, right? Now, at the lowest end of a stat like that, you have a spot up jump shooter. At the highest end of a stat like that, you have a pure driving, uh, go to the basket, you know, a ball's always in his hand, score, right? Alan Iverson. The the way in which I want Jalen Brown to be closer to the dribbles per score side than not, but just on the other side of the half is where I'm getting my advanced analytics. You know, like that's where I want all that stuff to go. Another thing I really want to see from him is I want to up his blocks by a few percentage points. And I want to make sure that he's in a position to play really good one-on-one defense against the best guy on the floor as much as possible, but not used in this sort of lazy secondary zone defense situation that we always put him in where he has to always react. Yeah, react to like we were like, oh, he was garbage defensively in the playoffs. It's like that's because he should be on the best player. He should just be on the best player. I don't understand why basketball was made so much more fucking complicated than this. To be honest, you know, the Celtics played an incredible in 08, they played an incredibly simple brand of basketball. They really did. They had really complicated side out plays, and and and their their score from timeout numbers were absolutely unreal. Yeah, and their ISO numbers were great, like the way they ran plays then, but that was just Pierce running towards the basket and deciding if a guy came towards him or kicked out to Ray Allen. And if he went out to Ray Allen, he scores. And if he comes towards Paul, he kicks it out to Ray, and Ray fucking scores because he was automatic, right? Is it back down to KG? Yeah, that was also like that was a tertiary option that would all like often work, right? KG hits that shot that Wemby missed today, by the way. Doubt he hits that like 100 times out of 100, like hails it, and that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

He's just the clear Tim Duncan does not miss that shot. Uh LeBron does not miss that shot. KD does not miss that shot. He's still a kid.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I wish that he had a roll to the basket on that Darren Fox screen. Weird man. Weird to see. Like, I know I saw the play and I understand and I know it developed perfectly well. But if he had just rolled really hard to the basket and just jumped forward and up, he's getting fouled at like a minimum, I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Oh, yeah, for sure. Plus, I think there was a foul on that last shot.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

You know what I mean? You know what play I really like? The commentators were so pissed about it. When Cornet kind of like trapped the ball with his foot, I was like, that is the definition of a heads-up play. If you call it Cornet, like but it's just like he just controlled the ball. You know what I mean? Like he just he just got the ball back for his team. And to me, that's just a heads-up play. That's just good play. Like it's so minor that you have to let it go. If you call that a kickball, I think you understand the rules, but you don't understand the game. That that's that would be my perspective on like if they called that. And honestly, I thought the refs were okay tonight.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

I I have no problem with the refs. They let him play. Last shot again. I appreciate that they didn't call it because it wasn't egregious, but there was definitely contact.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

And they were playing good basketball though. We in the Western Conference Finals, we were playing, we were seeing a lot of dishonest play from on both sides of the court. That like tonight was hard defense, you know, hard offense, gritty, getting in the paint, trying to win the battles, trying to win the rebounding. Nobody was yeah, they were fighting, they were getting chippy, but they weren't getting fucking dirty, they weren't getting gross. And honestly,

The New Team-Building Model After Cap Rules

SPEAKER_00 28:55

I think a big thing that's happening for the Knicks is that the Spurs almost kind of respect them because they're not the fucking thunder. Like they're a little bit kind of like, well, at least you guys aren't flopping. You're just trying to get to your spots and score. And it's like there's a little softness happy about them because they're kids, you know? Like they haven't developed that callous of, yeah, like I respect that for sure, but I still have to kill you. I need this.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

We saw Castle and Jalen Brown Jalen Brunson today. They're gonna get after it. We need to do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Fox and Brunson got in each other's faces and stared at each other. That's that's actually crazy too. Like, uh, it's gotta be so hard and at it at that level when you're competing at that level to not just punch somebody in the fucking face. Like the the fucking it's good, like that the level of self-control that must take. Like, because you're just so amped up, right? Like, I millions. When Wemby elbowed wait, who did he elbow?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

In the last series or in the series? Last series when he got suspended or where you got tossed out. It was um really chet. It wasn't it wasn't Chet, it wasn't SGA, was it um was it was J Will? Yeah, Jay Will.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, I think he, I think he uh we could be wrong about that, but whoever hit like that thing, it's just like, yeah, dude, it's probably so fucking hard because you're just so frustrated. But like they're amped up in this series, they're playing each other, you know. Like, I think that's what's fucking cool about them. This this like I think they do respect each other weirdly on like uh on like this level, and I think that the Knicks have come out and punched the fucking Spurs in the face.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

You get respect, didn't respect them, they better respect them now. I just they look dog to me, they look tired, man. At the end of the games, they look tired.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Okay, last couple of things, and then we'll call it just to go around the world a little bit. I heard the conversation about the AJ Brown trade. I have to say, where I fall on it is I'm a little nervous for you guys. It's not a I I promise this isn't a hate or take. I've been doing like pro Python stuff for like a while, and I do think our destinies are intertwined, and I do think I'm finally starting to believe that we're actually gonna meet each other in the promised land here. Oh yeah. But I I've for some reason it's just the way, like, you know, the way our quarterbacks were drafted at the same time, the way that our coaches were hired at the same time, the way that we found success at the same time, the way that the these I mean, we met in 1985, you know, where and also where I live, and you know, like it just it's all starting to kind of add up. But I'm a little nervous about the idea, and I don't care really about things like Super Bowl hangover that either happens or it doesn't. I don't really care about the like ray ball da-da-da thing. Like that you think the news cycle moves fast, wait until you see the NFL news cycle once the actual season starts up. Like it's it's insane. I mean, even the NBA, Chauncey Bills got fucking arresty Phillips, sorry, who got arrested at the start of the NBA season?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

It was uh what's oh my god, what's the thing? Back up, he was on our team. Uh Terry uh Rosier. No, no, no, no. Oh no coach, it was um it was uh Jason, not Jason. It was uh no, it was Chauncey Dills, wasn't it? Was it the gambling? Was it? I forget. Okay, I'm just gonna cut this.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

I'm just gonna cut this out. But that's literally the point.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah, it was Chauncey Dills. I was right the first time. When Chauncey Bills got arrested, we forgot about that in like seven weeks. We thought that the season was cursed. You think it uh it's gonna matter that Rabel was like uh having sex with a reporter? It's just not gonna matter. So plus Russini, like would who wouldn't? Right. Well, I don't support infidelity, but I support high fidelity, and I think everyone's sound system should be upgraded to the highest point because life is there to be experienced, okay? You know, like this used to be a country, people used to have their own goddamn business.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

What happened behind other closed doors was nobody's business, but that's always gonna be the New England attitude about things, too.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

I knew right away that the New England fan base was gonna collectively roll their fucking eyes at that. And I love listening. If you were in Massachusetts in 1998, you have no idea the depths of which people didn't care that Bill Clinton had sex with Monica Wolski.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

In 1978, people men were having families that lived apart like opposite streets of each other.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

That sounds stressful, honestly. That story about like guys going to like Seattle across the country to visit their other family. It's like, how about you visit your other completely empty apartment? I think that that I could see. That's like that. It's like it's it's a it's a really comfortable recliner and a really high definition television and a PS5, and that's the only thing that's in, and there's stuff in the fridge, and it's the only thing that's in the apartment that I can understand. That's the other family version. But I've kind of set my house up like that, actually. But I had a point, I had an overall point. What was it? Oh, yeah. The news cycle moves quick. The moves the news cycle moves quick. My issue about the AJ Brown trade is his production went down drastically in the last two years. Okay, yep. You're right.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

You're right. But he's a he's a fucking mental case too. If he's not happy, he's not gonna produce.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

For sure. That isn't Tom Brady or Joe Montana. You know what I mean? It's like I it's gonna test the caliber of Drake May.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

So you just said Joe Montana, Tom Brady, or Caleb Williams, or Drake May.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, maybe. I mean, I like the the what the really nice thing about Caleb's position, and I think I would take this, to be honest, if I had a choice, but obviously I'm biased. He's his guys are as old as him, and and they're really good. That's true. You know, like Roman Dunes is about to have a breakout year. Have you fucking seen him? The guy is absolutely shredded. I'm more worried that he's gonna not pass a steroids test than than have a have a tough time in in this season. His ability to get away from guys in OTA so far has been like really phenomenal. We've got depth at wide receiver, we've got a hundred thousand tight ends. Yeah, it's great. And then we've got Luther Burden who can like make Devin Hester like plays from behind the line of scrimmage, and I and I are you well far away from the people running at him at the very least. And I really think that because our destinies are intertwined, I hate to see us diverge because a giant splash signing like this for your young quarterback is gonna be really determinate about his future. Because like if they don't connect right away, I'm gonna be really worried for him because Brady didn't get Moss until what his ninth season? How how many was it? Was that is that right? That's so no two thousand two thousand six, seventh season. So so it's like, okay, you know, like that's I that's a little different. And also he was Tom Brady. We just didn't quite know it yet.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

We were written this, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:42

That's really, really different. That's really, really different. And I'm not saying like I think it's much harder to get Randy Moss than it is to get AJ Brown. I mean, uh AJ Brown had some weird quirks, and he was in a strange environment. It's strange in the sense that they would have really weird locker room times, but then also win championships. Like, I don't really understand how they kind of got that.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

What was happening that made him and Jalen Hurt fight the UN's rumor? The thing about him leaking stuff, so so or is it different? Javon Kirse and A.J. Brown are supposedly cheating on their spouses with the same woman. AJ Brown goes to soap opera call for circle jerk credits. He goes to Hurts and said, Hey, you gotta tell Kersh to leave my girl alone. And I guess Hurt was was essentially like I care too much about football to talk about this. He's like, Okay, fine, you're dead to me. That's it the AJ Brown. That's one of our friends. That's the lunacy that we deal with in our friends' circle. So I like it. Okay. So Dave, do you it are we gonna get this situation where Williams and May are our next, you know, Manning and Brady? Is that where this is going?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

I think they were the two best quarterbacks. I thought they're I th I think they're the two best young quarterbacks. I think they're the two best quarterbacks out of that draft. I

Building Around Jalen Brown And Celtics Identity

SPEAKER_00 36:55

think that a lot of people spent a lot of time calling Caleb Williams like the third or fourth best quarterback out of that draft. And I think it was pretty obvious to me, to be honest, that they were gonna become one and one A. Like I really I just thought that that was gonna happen because right away. I think like Williams is as good as it's set on the tin. I I I just think the packaging didn't lie, and I think like he was getting absolutely chased and murdered by a terrible Matt Eberflu system in his first year and still had flashes of brilliance. And then when Ben Johnson started to build the offense around, I mean, yeah, the two-pronged run game because that's his style, but also this guy and like letting him have his head, you know what I mean? Like late in the season, like letting him be him late in the season. I think that's that's when you realize you have a coach who has a touch of genius about him, you know, where he can he can make sure. I mean, I know that they've stressed completion percentage. I know that they're gonna stress completion percentage because that's obviously what you should do, right? Like, you need to make sure that you're getting in rhythm and and able to start to dominate the flow of a game. But he him already having absolutely bonkers in the fourth quarter, he's he he's there to win games, he's he's an absolute fucking winner. Like he fucks the ball. He's the baller in the in the when the game's on the line. Like, that's what you want. You build off that, you know. And what I like about Drake is like, I think that he's a little bit more, and I you know, no offense, but I think he's a little bit more in the Josh Allen mode where mold where he's like he's just needs to be set up to make plays all game. Protop just like, yeah, yeah. But but he's he can be really dangerous and he can have absolutely incredible games, uh in my opinion, where where he's sort of just like the game's his from the start. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Sometimes he has to just like Josh Allen, he has to run from the lead. He does not like trade. He's a bit of a front runner.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Yeah, he's a front runner, and I know what I'd rather have. But I think he'll be I think he'll have uh yeah, I know. I I really think he'll be able to become a fourth quarter dog. He's a child, you know. Like I he'll he'll be the kind of fourth quarter dog that Brady was. If he, you know, not maybe not at the same level, it's really hard to say that anyone could achieve that level. But he'd be the kind of fourth quarter dog that Brady was, is he would like break the fourth quarter, you know. Like he would he would yeah, he would just enter the fourth quarter and he would just like hit it, you know, and he would just become dominant in that sense. Yeah, Mahomes was a little bit like that too. Like Mahomes was able to like sort of play really consistently for three quarters and then and then sort of just come in and just ice the four fourth quarter and it was over. And it wasn't a come from behind thing or or anything. No, no, no. If you have the minute on the clock, you're in trouble. I like if you're comparing the ceiling, ceiling, ceiling, you know, like the highest level. I would put, and I really think this is true, Williams's best possible scenario, if he becomes the you know, the the highest possible caliber player you could be. He would remind me so much more of Joe Montana than he would of Tom Brady because Joe Montana was a fourth quarter comeback king at Notre Dame. They used to call him the comeback kid. He was a big play guy, he was a big memorable play. Like you remember Tom Brady for like a lot of plays, obviously, but you remember for his chips, you remember for him for his consistency, you remember for how many times he was there, how many times you watched him in the Super Bowl. Montana's a highlight. You know, he's an absolute fucking highlight, really. You know, like he was the his highlight was at the front of the NFL's highlight package for the last you know 40 years, or however long it was.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Every throw is off one foot.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Right. And like, I mean, the catch he's rolled out to his right. You know what I mean? And like he puts it really fucking high, and it's an unbelievable catch, but like he puts it in in the only place in a place where only his wide receiver can go get it.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

That's still not the best ball I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

I was oh boy. He he it was a fucking unbelievable ball. Yeah, I I think understanding Caleb Williams is understanding that that the throw to Dwight Clark by Joe Montana that they call the catch was a fucking unbelievable ball. And I and I really think that like, you know, what do you think about the Madden cover thing? People are so mad. There's so many grown men mad about the Madden cover, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Do you think the men do like will say something negative about him having nail polish? No that Tim Williams would beat the absolute fucking shit other than like literally kill them for trying. I actually haven't thought about it like that. He would fucking kill every single person like oh, he's wearing cook, he's wearing nail polish. Like, yeah, dude, he's an elite athlete that just signed with Nike. Yeah, he's gonna go get his balls licked while he eats caviar off of uh of a sterling silver plate.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

I'm gonna say two things, and I and these things are gonna come true. And I I think that I mean, look, I might be a little bit of a narcissist. I decided to have a podcast. But I think there's things that I know that I'm gonna get right. You're very humble. You're very I think there's things I know I'm gonna get right, and I'm gonna tell you two things, just based on like the small amount of research that I've done. And sort of my artistic eye. Those Madden covers are fire, regardless of who the athlete is, those Madden covers are absolutely fucking fire. The this the deluxe edition looks fucking dope. The Iceman thing is cool, objectively, and the replication of the Air Jordan throw, that was one of the best throws I've ever seen in my life. So cool. So, like, so basically, what are Madden doing now? They're like, who did the best? This is so smart by them, and you're not even realizing the strategy. Who had the best play? Who had the single best play in the season? Who had the best play last year before that?

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Caleb Williams had and Caleb Williams.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

No, before the year, no, the year, no, the year before that. I'm talking last year's Madden. Saquon Barkley, the backwards jump over the guy.

AJ Brown Trade Anxiety And QB Trajectories

SPEAKER_00 42:35

You literally are just putting the guy who made the best play on the cover now. That's so fucking smart. Because Caleb Williams made the best play of last season. That's just a fact. If you want to come on this podcast and debate me on that, you would be absolutely belt to ass slapped up and down the street. I I it's it's objectively the best fucking play of last season.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Life on Patriots fan, he made the best three plays.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah, dude. He fucking unbelievable topics, honestly. And what and what I love about him being on the Madden cover is this is my second point, and this is another thing I know is going to be true. This new Madden is gonna be fucking sick. The gameplay is 10x better than it has been for the last seven years. I've watched the gameplay videos, it's genuinely so good. Here's a couple things they've introduced jostling between the wide receiver and the center hat and the center back, the cornerback. You jostle now, like in FIFA, and you have to time the catches. And there's like a red, yellow, green system when you take over the wide receiver. It almost seems like a no-brainer, but if it works properly and you can just get really good at timing the grabs, it's gonna be so much fun. Playing a wide receiver as like the be a pro or whatever is gonna be so much fucking fun. If the and then there's there's this ease up and be more pressured system where you can select individual players and go like be less aggressive, be more aggressive. So if you're getting beat by a quarterback in the deep area, it's like, all right, you gotta start pushing guys back if you're dead. Like if you if you can feel like you can get on top of them, you can start to get aggressive and you can name individual players pre. snap really fast with like the right stick. It's gonna be a ton of fun, dude. And I think that Caleb has been on the best Madden in in what's the last really good Madden fucking Madden.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

The last really good one? Uh 24.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

No.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

It hasn't been that good in a while. 24 Government did the story mode.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Oh yeah. That was pretty I guess I enjoyed this last one where you I made my college guy. Yes. And I went and then I went to the NFL. Like I made a QB in college and then I went to the NFL and then I had like a story career. I like the narrative arc. But I digress. I like this whole thing. The AJ Brown thing, I don't know. I'm not I think you should be excited but I'm not 100% sold. I I I think there's ways it could go wrong I guess is my whole point. I am I think the Patriots are still cons they're still contenders. Like they just went to the Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Super Bowl's on baby Super Bowl's on 2,000 receiving yards and 22 touchdowns watch yeah I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

I don't know if it's 100% that the Bears are going to Indiana but it's on here sickening honestly sickening. What is going on? It's Kevin Warren Kevin Warren's a terrible CEO and he's using this as leverage he did it in his past jobs and it he did he was he was at the Vikings and he was like we're going to LA or we're doing this I promise it's happening didn't happen. He's trying to use it as leverage incredibly obvious it's bad I think they're gonna end up in Arlington Heights still I really do. I think they're gonna have a Foxboro type situation where like nobody's gonna mind so much. Dude this is not like this is Chicago. There's no room in the city that there's definitely no room in the city Chicago because you're not getting a stadium in in what at the loop I mean if it were me I would just knock down the entirety of the middle of the city and build like a sort of Patriots place. But it's the bears it's got like trains well you know how much how good the public transport is in Chicago it's got trains coming from all sides you know it's like this central hub where it's like this train station and then on top of this central train station is the fucking bear stadium and it's got like holes like I I mean I I don't I a girl can dream but I saw this like presentation of it once where like somebody had actually mapped it out and it looked really fucking cool. Fuck the beans put it where the beat is yeah I I mean I I want to keep the bears as close to Chicago as possible. If they're in Indiana it's gonna be so heartbreaking like that just makes

Bears Stadium Politics And Fan Revolt Energy

SPEAKER_00 46:20

me so sad. I can't even like I can't even like argue back with people that are making fun of me about it because I'm just like I'm just so sad about it. I can't even have it like it's just so upsetting. Yeah you yeah yeah I can tell how upset you're with your response Indiana dude that's my least favorite state I've had terrible experiences in the state of Indiana. Awful why Indiana Because they're gonna give you a ton of public money they're they're they're willing they're already willing to part with a ton of public money they're not gonna charge them taxes they're not you know what I mean like it's it's it's just a money grab and and that's so upsetting to me. Like at one at one point is enough enough they're already fucking millionaires inherited from because they're one of the only families where the where the team is their only thing. Yeah yeah yeah yeah you're right do you know what I mean like it's it's like running point you know it's like the team is their thing they're not rich outside of it you know and I and I think that creates a really toxic atmosphere for dumb spoiled little rich kids for sure and I think that's really upsetting and honestly like my recourse would would genuinely be boycott and protest. I I I think the city of Chicago should fucking revolt. I would call I would call into question the entire leadership structure of the Chicago Bears and I would I would it's France in the 1700s baby we're rolling out the guillotine baby let's do it McCaskey's a fucking he's he's the last Louie kill the 16th he's he's he's he seems like a nice enough guy but he's too weak to be a leader the blood's gotten too thin you know that's yes sell the sell the fucking team you know sell the team at least your ownership is like stable and established you know like damn like the the difference is clear.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Well we talked basketball we talked football who's in the Super Bowl you're in the Super Bowl right now we can't do the Super Bowl right now it's June 5th games asked me to do the right show this year which I'm incredibly bears point that's one boy that's boy there was only one answer.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Thank you all right on that note this has been this