Championship Hangover - 2002 New England Patriots

Michael Marcangelo: 0:24

Since 2001, New England and its fans have celebrated 12 championships, and we have earned the nickname titletown. But what about the year after? What happened after the duck boats pulled away from government center? What happened after the confetti was swept off at Tremont Street. Here on this show, we look at every season after championship where they failed to do so again. It's not going to be easy, but if it were, everyone would do it. This is the championship hangover. All right, everyone. Welcome in to the championship hangover. This is our first episode and today we are talking about the 2002 New England Patriots I am your host, Michael Mark angele joined alongside by rayshawn Buchanan and Joe Malkin. And, guys, this isn't something that people talk about often. So I'm really, really excited to do this.

Joe Malkin: 1:34

Yeah, this is gonna be a fun one. You're absolutely right. You know, we did that championship rewrap of the 2001 New England Patriots championship team in Super Bowl 36, which you can find anywhere you find your podcast, just search the ss w podcast. And that was so much fun to do. I mean, we we did just what two and a half hours on that. But no, you're absolutely right. Nobody talks about this. Nobody talks about the year after. And and this, this is gonna be a blast.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 2:07

It's really easy to talk about the years that you didn't win because you can draw the emotional toll like Oh, man, like, I don't think we would do it than we did. And you just go, you go crazy. But then you know how that euphoria comes down after, you know you lose? So what do we do after two years out there? But you know, so yeah. So it's great that we're bringing this up and, you know, hopefully to listen to this love as much as we do.

Joe Malkin: 2:31

And there's 12 there's 12 teams in the NFL that haven't even had the chance to have a hangover. So I guess this is another privilege of being annoying Patriots fan.

Michael Marcangelo: 2:40

Exactly. And I think Joe you set the table perfectly right. Just a little bit of a backstory. We all know what happened in 2001. Right. The Patriots completed the most unlikely season by defeating the greatest show on turf 2017 as time expired, all with an unproven second year quarterback Tom Brady, and a desperate head coach, Bill Belichick. And again, we all know that that night, everyone was patriots and the Patriots were world champions. But then after that, we were we were back to are the Patriots going to be contenders. No one was counting them in right that offseason, if you remember, it was a pretty notable one. Drew Bledsoe, Mr. patriot and the franchise player who had pretty much revived the New England Patriots in their franchise. He was traded to Buffalo after signing a 10 year deal. Along with Terry Glen so when you think about those two players what they had meant to the Patriots. It was a little it's a little crazy to think that now they're just gone.

Joe Malkin: 3:39

Yeah, and that was the biggest thing with Drew Bledsoe. Right. So you mentioned what's gonna happen the next year what are they gonna be able to sustain this was just was this a flash in the pan because everybody looked at Drew Bledsoe coming into 2001 he had just signed a huge contract. And he gets knocked down knocked out by Moe Lewis, nobody knew what was gonna happen. It's kind of a, it was a weird feeling. If you think about a kind of like a euphoric fearful time as a fan, because you don't know what's going to happen. Drew Bledsoe leaves for the Buffalo Bills, which was a very strange trade for the Patriots at the time, right? You're trading him to a division rival, a longtime rival of the New England Patriots. And I guess it was a lot to dump the contract. But now you have, you know, you mentioned that the Brady was a second year quarterback and one. I mean, technically Oh, two was a second year it was his first year where he would start game one, right. And it was his really his second year because his first season in the league, he didn't even dress. So I mean, that without a doubt has to be the biggest loss because now we said well, okay, you know, I think it was split. Half the fan said, All right, Brady's our guy, this is this is what's going to happen. This is what we're going forward with build trust this guy, but at the same time, it was like, Whoa, like, this was kind of the first shake up and kind of a transcendent moment for the NFL. Right. I mean, so as Joe Montana being shipped off to Kansas City at the end of his career, but but Bledsoe for all intents and purposes was right in the middle of his career and And this was this was a big move.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 5:27

I mean, I remember being nervous that you know, Drew went, yeah, Drew once a buffalo but I was like, man, like, not only did he leave the Patriots, but I say he's within division, like you just mentioned. And I actually thought buffalo was gonna win a division, I was like, Jersey gonna come out here, and just make it all over the field. And, but even on a deeper level, it's like, Okay, if Brady's to get hurt. Now, who's the guy that's gonna be behind him, he's gonna be starting. So there was just a whole bunch of questions that went into that season, like it was, it was exciting to see something new. But at the same time, it's like, okay, as a fan, you still wanting that security blanket just in case something happened. Um, you know, so But either way, we found out real quick, um, you know, Brady had the reins.

Michael Marcangelo: 6:10

Yeah, and again, you know, Drew Bledsoe was Mr. patriot. On a lighter note. Terry Glen, who was probably the most versatile and electric wide receiver that we had that we had known that we our generation knows up to this point as a patriot. He doesn't get a Super Bowl ring. And he just he passed away and goes to Green Bay to join not to join Brett Farve in the Packers. So again, you lose Mr. Patriot, you lose probably the most versatile offensive weapon that you have. Now Bill Belichick is forced to look look to the draft. And I don't know Joe, if you remember this, this draft class, but not only did he look he found people that would go on, you know, in the future to to contribute very, very highly to the patrons but he drafts number 120 first overall pick Daniel Graham, second round, Deion branch. Later in the draft, he took Jarvis green who was as rayshawn convention he was he was very, very good on the defensive line. And then Mr. irrelevant for the Patriots that year was David Givens. So you lose you lose a great receiver. And they got to do you think you know so? Take yourself back to your you know, your 12 year old self 2002 right. But those gone, Terry Glen's gone, when you see like Deion branch David Givens, are you excited at all?

Joe Malkin: 7:25

What was kind of cool to think about that, you know, take myself back to the 2002 and think about how I was back then. I mean, I've always thought I was very consistent sports fan, even back then. Because I didn't really have I mean, I grew up I you know, at that point, being 1213 years old, grew up watching Drew Bledsoe, but, you know, having him leave and then seeing bill surround, this young kid who just won a Super Bowl with some talent. I mean, this, this could go and this might be the hot take of the entire show. But this might have been one of his best offensive drafts he ever had. I mean, Daniel gramm Deion branch and David Givens as you said, Mike, all guys that that contributed on the offensive side of the ball. And then you had you had Jarvis green, who very much contributed on the defensive side and added to a defense that was already very good. And for what it's worth, was still Pete Carroll's defense in a lot of ways. So, you know, I, I don't know if excitement, because I I've never been one to get excited over a draft because it really in my lifetime, the Patriots have never drafted the guy, right. Like we've never seen that. And we haven't seen that in the last 20 years. That's for sure. They've never drafted the guy. I mean, even Tom Brady, like 199th overall in the sixth round compensatory pick. So yeah, I mean, excitement in the sense that he was trying to surround himself and Terry Glenn was one of those guys, and I'm sure we'll talk about this more as well. We may not talk about it more as we go. But Terry Glen was one of those guys that he was very outspoken. I think he and Bill, I think there was a lot of friction there. He got he was a part sales guy. And he got along really well with Bill Parcells and which means he was here during Bellatrix first stint as a defensive coach with the New England Patriots in the mid 90s. That 95 team, but i don't i don't think i don't think they got along very well. And I think that's part of the reason why he was shipped off to Green Bay and I think that was a good move for him at the time.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 9:47

Yeah, I mean, for me, Hell no, I wasn't excited about Dr. branchen able to give this come well.

Joe Malkin: 9:52

That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Right. Right. Like how can you be excited about these guys coming out of the draft? Like you know, I don't know what you're getting and you have a second year quarterback affected, right.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 10:01

Exactly. So I mean, you know, to me, even that's what was Oh, like, I definitely was a Troy brown guy because of what happened the year before, you know, with him making that touchdown in an AFC Championship game. So yeah, I want to set up on no rookies coming in. I had no idea where they came from. Like I didn't I didn't know that branch. It came from Louisville only I don't even I don't even know what school did Gibbons came from but like you said he was Mr. Oh no Notre Dame. But yeah, he was the It was missing irrelevant. So you're at home, he was only 22 years old, 42 years old, like you're not expecting that guy to be, you know, anything to that to a team that's desk attending. So, um, but yeah, but like you said, I mean, David Graham didn't pan out, as well as he could have been or should have been. And that's putting it lightly, but dedicated to the guests who want to be nice. Um, but, you know, branch, you know, and I'm having a decent rookie season. I think 43 catches for 89 yards, two touchdowns. So you kind of saw a glimpse of what he was going to be. As he got that chemistry. We're Brady. Green was here for about seven, eight years. Um, you know, and, you know, I said, wasn't someone I was going to get you 10 sacks a year, but, you know, he was he was someone that, you know, issue three or four a gear, you know, and play played out for three defense that bill like the run, especially at that time with having a big from seven. So, yeah, I mean, that that draft really set up. You know what, you know, we will see years to come and I agree with you, Joe. I do think that's probably the best job that he's had. Really on both sides of the ball.

Michael Marcangelo: 11:37

Yeah, I mean, I offensively for sure. And so now, now we're past the draft or going into the end of the preseason. The Patriots are not even favored to not even win the Superbowl but to even make it Pittsburgh is still the team to beat in the AFC at this point in time. Little do they know that Oakland was also still pretty good too. But you know, now Gillette Stadium, the first game in Gillette Stadium, it is the grand opening, the banner is raised. There's air celebrations going around, it's primetime. It's the Patriots versus the Steelers. And again, the Patriots, I'm pretty sure I did my research. They were a half point favorite. So at home, they were pretty much an underdog, right? That's what that means. And they blew them out. 3214. That game, I think showed us exactly what what we loved about Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, in terms of the offense, it was a great defensive performance as well. So when again, thinking back first came out to the Super Bowl, its regular season the banners up and they blow out the Steelers. What do you what do you guys think? I remember it pretty well.

Joe Malkin: 12:44

I remember I'm pretty well. I mean, it was you're kind of coming off of a high right, you know, and that that's the point. That's the point of this whole show right? Here is the hangover, you're coming off a high. Your team is not even in the top two to repeat as AFC Champions. You know not not to mention even get there because you're right, Mike, the favorites. Were the were the Steelers. And I'm pretty sure the the Raiders were right there behind them. I mean, because they didn't know what to what to say about New England. I mean, you look at and there's a reason for that. I mean, you look at the offseason and the trading of Drew Bledsoe who was on 100 million dollar contract. The trading of Terry Glenn, who it needs to be mentioned to the Terry line only played in four games in 2001. So it's not like he was a big contributor to that Super Bowl win. You know, I for a moment, I actually forgot it was even on that team because he only played it in four games. He only started in one. So I mean, but you look at that Pittsburgh game, they come on fire. And I used to love that about the NFL too. So here's my NFL schedule rant. I don't know why they got away from this. But to open the season up with the Super Bowl champs against the team that they played in their conference championship game. I feel like that's the way it should be every year. I really do. I mean, that just it just adds so much to that first game, especially if you're going to put it on a Thursday night in primetime. When we know that Thursday night games really have not gotten you know, the big. The big games are great games granted. Go, you know, go back to 2002. This game was on on a Monday night. So I mean, you could do that to go cap off the week. But anyway, rant over about NFL scheduling, because we all know that that's a cluster anyway. So they come out and they beat up on the Steelers and that you're right, Mike. I mean, that was kind of a message sent right away. Right. So I mean, we all kind of know what happened in this season. And we'll get there as we progress. But I mean, just what what a game against the Steelers, the Steelers aren't expecting it. You got bill cower. I mean, I was gonna mention that about the coaches and why the Patriots weren't favorite. I mean, you can mean you got you got bill cower. as the head coach of the Steelers, you have Jon Gruden, the head coach of the Raiders. I mean kordell Stewart was the quarterback of the Steelers. And that was Was his heyday. I mean, he was pretty good. I actually think he was underrated for the quarterback that he was. But I mean, man, that team and I'm looking at it now that kordell Stewart and Kwan Randall L. Jerome Bettis Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, I mean, they they, and that's why they were favored to win the Super Bowl because who did the Patriots have? jr redmon. Tom Brady. David Givens Antwan Smith. I mean, so it's not like we're talking about big name guy and Bill Belichick who had been a relative kind of a failed coach in Cleveland, and you know, wasn't a flash in the pan that they won the Super Bowl, did they just feed off of what was going on in the country and then make it happen? I don't know. I mean, but at the time, I don't know. But this, this was a good way to start off the season coming off a Super Bowl.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 16:19

Later on, we found out that we usually own Pittsburgh, and these moments like Pittsburgh, we actually we faced them quite a few times, I think at the beginning of the year, but needless to say, yeah, it was a great way. I said, you know, obviously, it'll be close down the dump that was hard for our stadium. Uh, you know, even though we had a glass of a moment there, but we know our stadium was not even though I never went there, but I'm glad I didn't go listen to

Joe Malkin: 16:41

so much fun.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 16:43

Yeah, I'm sure it was fun to watch and I just you know what I mean, Gillette is Gillette, Gillette, Gillette, and you know, so for them to come into the stadium. And I think about how crazy is that Mike, that this team came in being a half point favorite at home. Like it we have to go back to like, you know, we've you know, 18 years later we you know, there's like oh my god, like they have point failure like there's no way But once again, like you said, Joe, like if you have guys like Bill power that was you know, that was a hell of a coach. And you know, how stuck that Pittsburgh team was? Because people didn't believe in doing when the state get obviously, um, I think that I think Vegas I was a fluke to say, you know what, yeah, they won. Okay. They could do a year too.

Joe Malkin: 17:26

Well, right. And to that point, you know, you talk about them being half point favorites at home. We've said it a few times now. That this is kind of where that underdog mentality of the New England Patriots picked up steam. They they used it so much at all one like hey, you know what, you just knocked out our dude. Like, Drew Bledsoe was a top quarterback in the NFL. And now this kid coming from Michigan is gonna be our starting quarterback. We're gonna see what we can do with them. While you the Raiders don't respect us. The Steelers don't respect us. The Rams don't respect us. And now the NFL and Vegas don't respect us. All right, here we go. Let's show you what we can do. And they've used that to this day. And they really used it from during Brady's time here in New England. I don't think it works in 2020 as much with Cam Newton and kind of a changing of the guard with Tom Brady gone. I think it was just, it was nightmare fuel for other teams when it was Tom Brady and Bill Belichick and playing the underdog card. And people got tired of that for a long time. But this is where this Pittsburgh game in this 2002 seasons where that mentality really picked up steam.

Michael Marcangelo: 18:43

Yeah, I mean, I think that in the 2002 season, right? They don't have that aura around them yet. It's still kind of unproven Brady yet. They want a Super Bowl. Sure. But like, were they just riding like a big wave of momentum, like you said, and to open up the season and really win with no doubt against against Pittsburgh followed up with a 44 to seven victory over over the New York Jets. And then the next week after that you're 4138 in overtime against the Kansas City Chiefs. Your three? No, you're the defending reigning NFL Super Bowl champions and your three No. And still people still people out there are casting doubt. So after that three nose start. I know this. I remember this vividly. I was like they're gonna do this again, that they're better they figured it out. I don't know about the rescue. But after three, you know, like, I kind of felt like, you know, we're scoring at least 30 points a game for over 40 twice. This is a good offense, you know, maybe this is going to be another year.

Joe Malkin: 19:42

So here's another interesting point about this season that we need to bring up. This was an expansion year. This was the year that the Houston Texans came into the league. And we talked about it before we came on. And this was when the divisions went from East Central West to East, North, south and west. And that win over the Jets was big. But it wasn't enough as we find out at the end of the season, because I forgot how bad the AFC East was that year. But that went over the chiefs and I have to mention it. More for Bobby who's not here with us. But priest Hong's ran for 180 yards and two touchdowns and that came against the New England Patriots on 30 attempts. mean, the Patriots were beating good teams, Pittsburgh was not to jump ahead too much on your mic. But Pittsburgh went on to go 10, five and one. And when the North, the jets were nine and seven and ended up winning east, and the Kansas City Chiefs granted, they finished at the bottom of the AFC West, but they were eight and eight because that division was, I mean, not bad. So, yeah, I mean, it was, it was kind of a fun first three games to really look at and say, Hey, All right, now we've picked up momentum. And we can we can really do something here.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 21:01

Yeah, I mean, I definitely thought they had caught fire too, because I was nervous coming into the season. But obviously, even as a kid, like, as a fan, like you start to start to relax a little bit when you see a team get out to that start. You know, we soon we soon found out it wasn't, it wasn't gonna stay consistent. But I mean, it's thought through, you know, coming off that off that ship should run, you know, really just let me know, like, okay, maybe they are here to stay. Maybe they are. Maybe they have found their franchise quarterback. And you know, maybe they are the team of the future. So, but, you know, so there's a lot of ups and downs, though. But like that that started was great. Nevertheless,

Michael Marcangelo: 21:37

this is like I think this is the most bipolar pages, you know, we can ever talk about right? Because they start three now. And it's it looks like everything is firing on all cylinders. And then they go on to do something that they had never done under Bill Belichick and have never done since and lose four straight games, but five out of their next seven,

Rayshawn Buchanan: 21:56

you say it sounds crazy.

Michael Marcangelo: 22:01

Let me say that again. They lost four games in a row. And they weren't. They wasn't like they were close. They were close, nitty gritty games. They lost. They put up 14 points against the chargers. 13 points against the dolphins that's gonna bite you in the butt. They put up 10 points against Terry Glenn's Green Bay Packers, then they have a bye week. And they come out of the bye week and they lose to Denver. I mean, can you think about it now? We were 18 years removed for this now but just think about this. A four game losing streak for the Patriots with Tom Brady, under Bill Belichick. So now you're sitting at the rain for No way. And

Joe Malkin: 22:37

well, and I just want to point out that after that, that we get lost to the Denver Broncos. It was the only time that season that they were under 500 if that's any consolation. But so the year prior, and the one game I can on here is Sunday, October 6 2002. against the Miami Dolphins, which they they were doubled up in last 26 to 13. This was the second time that Tom Brady had lost in Miami. He was beaten 3210, the year before and the year that they won the Super Bowl. This was when his woes in Miami began, right. I mean, he has never for some reason he's never been able, he was never really able to win in Miami was the only place he couldn't walk in and make something happen. And of course, then he goes to play for Tampa. So but it's just it's really interesting to look back at this season and see what they did and how they did it. You're absolutely right, Mike, I mean, that game is gonna bite him in the butt that Green Bay Packers team was was. I mean, they were pretty good too. I mean, that was a good team. They, you know, everybody always says on the Patriots have had easy schedules. I mean, you look back at 2002 and look at their schedule. boy, boy, I mean, that, that the whole schedule up and down. Was was just tough with maybe the exception of you know, Detroit at the time. But yeah, I mean, no, to answer your question. No, I didn't think I you would never have seen that for you. I don't think they ever after the 2002 season. Was there ever a point that they lost four games in a row with Tom Brady as quarterback?

Michael Marcangelo: 24:17

This is the only time ever under Bill Belichick regardless of whose quarterback that he's ever lost four games in a row as a coach of the Patriots so so Ray, you say you're riding high like you're taking a deep breath right after three No, now you're three and four.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 24:32

Now now freaking out. I'm freaking out. I'm going crazy. I'm I'm pissed off as a kid. I'm like, I'm trying to focus on the sound thanks like even even as it's all be rotor, so you know don't go figure. Um, but man like I'm like, yo, like, you had a chance bro like you supposed to walk into certain places and say, you know what we've wanted we've been here let's impose our will. And that was a happening and you know, like Joe said like that's where the beginning the mind has happened. So we talked a little bit about this off off the air but by me and Denver will always two places that are pretty just struggle. I don't know why. Me I don't know. I lived in Miami so I mean, I can imagine how a week was coming into that maybe they went out to South Beach. Especially that's a young Brady's he was made he went out to South Beach. Maybe they went to get some some wings that Lou Williams who knows. But um I can't understand why he has trouble in Miami. That's all I could say. And I'll leave it at that when I was getting kicked off. But yeah, we I was I was definitely freaking out. Maybe we're not as good as we thought we were a shout out to Dennis green. Yeah, so now now I'm in a freakout stage.

Joe Malkin: 25:45

So maybe here too, this is, you know you when those first three games, you're riding high. And then Mike, I think kind of what you're getting at here with this four game losing streak is up, the hangovers hit like it's that point where you're, you're coming down. And you know whether you've been out at South Beach, having a few drinks before you play the dolphins or whatever you've been doing. Now you're coming down from that, and, and things aren't going as well. And that headaches kicking in and you don't really know what's going to happen. I i attributed to the fact that this was a very young team in 2002. I mean, sure you had some of the best coaches in football with this team, right? I mean, this was the coaching staff that Bill Belichick put together, in this first run of Super Bowls, was just absolutely incredible. And most of them are still around. So exactly kind of says something to what it was in the early 2000s. But, you know, I looking back on it in the moment, I'm with Ray like, Yeah, man. Oh, boy. All right, we're three and four. You know, there's, there's 11 games left and or I'm sorry, nine games left in the season? What What is this team going to do? How are they going to get out of this hole? You know, they won last year as a 13 year old kid, you're going, they got to go back? And then you know, as a parent, you know, my dad was basically under the impression of, well, you know, we want at once that was great. Who knows this could take forever, we may never do this again, in my lifetime in your lifetime is basically what he was saying at this point. So you know, a tough part of the year and most teams have it, but I'm gonna say it was because this team was young. I mean, we looked at that draft. We saw how many guys came in and contributed. And we'll talk about it in the next couple rerelease. But we know that this team matures pretty well.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 27:39

I feel like that's a generational thing because I didn't my mom was a child of the 60s. And so she knows about the Celtics dominating. He knows about, you know, she wasn't watching hockey, but you know, she knows about Bobby you're, you know, Phil Esposito Ray board cam Neely, um, you know, so she knows about that ever being, you know, dominant far as you know, they went to a couple championships in the 70s themselves. Um, but it was just like, Look, okay, they got their great you know, she was like, I remember saying like, we know the restaurants are never going to do XYZ again didn't have to since you know your grandma more. You know, so you are wrong, Mom, you're wrong. You were wrong.

Joe Malkin: 28:18

She was wrong.

Michael Marcangelo: 28:19

I think people this is the part of the of the podcast, we should remind people that Boston sports fans were historically predispositioned back losing.

Joe Malkin: 28:30

Yeah, let's talk about that right now too. Because, you know, I mentioned it on on the rewrap of like you have to go back to where this started. And remember where you came from? Because at some point, this is all going to go downhill. It happens with every dynasty right? The Cowboys fell off the the the Steelers never really fall off the Steelers are always consistent that that franchise has been consistent since day one. But even they went through a period where they didn't win anything, right? So eventually, it's gonna happen again, looking at this patriots team in 2020. If you're listening to this, eventually this team is going to be what they were in the late 80s and early 90s, they're not going to succeed. Hopefully that time comes later rather than sooner. But back in 2002 that was the mentality as Mike and rayshawn just said, you know, when they went to the Superbowl after the 95 season, the Red Sox had had a few really good years. In 2002 the Red Sox were starting to build something themselves. So you look back at it and our friends and family that are a little bit older saying well, you know, hang on a second let's temper our expectations. And us as kids we still weren't even thinking back on it now. We weren't even in the mindset yet. I'm okay, we're gonna do this every year. That doesn't really happen until later. So at this point in the season, you're like, Well, alright, well that was fun while it lasted

Michael Marcangelo: 30:01

Yeah, Joe we were in the mindset like holy shit it happened once like oh, like oh my god. Like you mentioned the Red Sox Have you got head had some pretty good series The Patriots had gotten their in laws and then they finally did it and it's like, okay, they did it. And then we're still Boston sports fans, right? Like we're they're still gonna bring us right to the brink. And then I promise you this how we all used to feel they will find a way in the most general Magic of fashion to break your heart. And I think, right you're nodding your head like that's, that's what you're expecting?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 30:30

Oh, of course, man. And that's the thing. Like, I mean, well, you know, it's not about the wrestlers, but you know, we brought it up. So it's like, you know, 98 you know, they make the playoffs, they lose to Cleveland, I believe. I'm 99 we get to the ALCS. You know, Pedro has that 17 there's they score, they win 1701 New York, they lose again to New York. I mean, I knew that scene was ridiculous, but they lose that, you know, they they go 93 and 69 and 12 and two, so like, okay, but great little, as we know, did nothing. So it's just like, yeah, like you said, it gets it a break. You know, you get there you get closer, you get closer, get closer, and it's like, Damn, oh, fall off the cliff. And it's like, Damn, what the hell happened? But, you know, um, basically that changed. But at that time, that was the thought process of like, 95% of us.

Michael Marcangelo: 31:19

Yep. So we just we just go through that four game losing streak, right and who's waiting for us now? It is Drew Bledsoe and the Buffalo Bills. And I think what goes, you know, pretty much unmentioned. Like, when you look back at history, this game in Buffalo was one of Tom Brady's absolute best. He went 22 of 26 for 265 yards, three touchdowns, no picks quarterback rating of 140 7.6 and they handily defeated the bills 38 to seven so now you're like, Okay, foreign for you beat the guy. You beat Mr. patriot. You know Bledsoe still there for 200 or 300 yards there for touchdown. Obviously the repec That's what I mean. That's what you do when you throw the ball 45 times. But now you kind of feel like maybe maybe they maybe they even things out. Or did they?

Joe Malkin: 32:10

Maybe, I mean, they didn't even it out right at four and four. And I think we all at that time, didn't see buffalo as much of a threat. I think they were kind of going through their decade long hangover after losing four straight Super Bowls. But you know, they were kind of rejuvenated. They finished the season eight and eight. I think it was kind of unexpected, when I just don't think we thought that after a bye week in a home loss to Denver, that they would go on the road and lose to Buffalo. I mean, New England's always, you know, at that time, had already created a pretty good rapport against the bills. And I think Brady you know, Brady was young, this was the point where he was fired up. Bill was still his guy, right? It was it was kind of like Big Brother little brother still. And I think he was going up there to show off and he did. And he made his his voice heard in Buffalo at that point. I mean, I don't think it was necessarily a Hey, they're going to turn it around and this you know, they're going to go 12 and for now and they're going to run the table and go to the Superbowl. I think it was more of a you know, alright, they're off the schneid. They're coming back they beat buffalo you know, maybe this is the season isn't lost yet.

Michael Marcangelo: 33:30

Yeah. So Ray Well, I mean, you you said earlier in the show that you thought the bills or that they that they could win the division right so now you're going it now the Patriots are going into buffalo against Bledsoe at at a at three and four. What's going through your mind during that game?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 33:44

Oh, I'm on my way back in the game, baby. We back because I thought I thought that, um, I thought blissing with Eric modes, was going to tear up not only that division onto there's going to have to lead Eric Moses was a pretty good receiver. Pro Bowl, if I'm not mistaken at that time. So I was like, and they they're gonna, they're gonna tear it up. So so we come into their house up in Orchard Park, and, you know, uh, you know, we rip them apart. So I was like, okay, like, the scene was I thought the scene was gonna be better than this. We coming out where the champs were the guys that, you know, you know, you want to load WWE early, the reigning defending? You know, so I just thought that, you know, we were back on track, but I will say it's the game after that. And Chicago, at Illinois, at the University of Illinois. That's the game whilst at all. Now I think we're really going to get back to where it was good. Now we're getting close to where we were the year before where, you know, all we lost against St. Louis, but you felt like okay, it was like a moral victory. But when, when Chicago scored 21, the third quarter. And if we held it's only three and the fourth quarter, and we come back to when 33 to 30. I was like, Oh, here we go. We're about to run the table. on, you know, Jim Miller was some guy was going to beat us and they care about Mike Brown, even though he was a good safety or lacquer or rW macoris. Whoever was on that team. It didn't matter. Marty Barker who was on that team. I was like, here we go. Brady's that guy. Number two was coming, but didn't happen right?

Joe Malkin: 35:21

That Chicago team was pretty good at the time. And the reason why I don't think I wasn't high on the bills was because they they, they were the bills still at the time. And, you know, I just looked at Drew Bledsoe, his numbers from that year he played pretty well. It was a Pro Bowl selection that year 24 touchdowns. 15 interceptions. But, you know, was he fully healthy? And I think it was just a high that that, that Tom and Bill had. And I know that Ray and I kind of look at that buffalo game differently. But we don't look at the Chicago game differently. Because I absolutely agree. I forgot that. That was when they were doing the renovations to Soldier Field, and they were playing at the University of Illinois, which was absolutely hilarious. But, you know, when when we went in there, they were that it was they were having a rough time. I mean, they had won their first two games of the season, they had lost five in a row coming into that game against the Patriots. And it looked like at that point that that's when they were going to try and turn around right, then it looked like Chicago was going to be able to do something. But at the end of the day, that team was not very good. I mean, they finished four and 12 that year, so but like rayshawn said for them to come back when that game 3330 for Brady to have the game that he did. And really, I think this was the game where Brady showed that he was the guy that he was a leader, and he was going to be able to do what needed to be done in order to win games.

Michael Marcangelo: 36:50

So so then they do they do that, right? they they they get back to their five and for their above 500. And now it's a rematch of the AFC Divisional matchup from the year before it's except this time we're going to Oakland and 2720 I mean, so now I'm thinking I'm going to tell you right, right, right now I'm thinking we're five and five. You know, we lost four games in a row, we should know when we were great to start off in the middle, that defense was allowing on average, 140 yards rushing per game, that defense, the same defense that held the greatest show on turf to 17 points. So I'm thinking manly, I don't know what to do like, but a win against the Raiders would be great. And then they lose. And now you're back to five and five. They just never know. I think for me, looking back on it's easier to say now but I think at five and five. I was like, you know this, they might just be okay. Maybe they're not great. I don't know how you guys felt?

Joe Malkin: 37:49

Yeah, this was the point. It's so funny how you think back on your 13 year old mind and go. Wow, we started three and oh, it's gonna happen again. Right? Right. Like that's what we said earlier. It's like, yes, this this is gonna happen and then they lose four in a row. And it's kind of like that, that Red Sox revisionist history where we're like, oh, these guys suck. Alright, nevermind, like a flash in the pan. It's it's over like that This is it. And then they beat buffalo. And it's like, okay, Tom, Tom beat his big brother like we're, we're getting, we're getting there. And then they beat Chicago who, you know, they had to come back against again. I always, I always hate to say, you know, even an Owen 16 lions team. It's like, well, there's still an NFL team with NFL players. So you still have to give them some ounce of respect. And what this bears team had to do the same thing. I mean, they were fighting for their lives this season, too. And the Patriots just dug it out at the end. And then Mike I can as you're mentioning this Raiders game, I'm thinking you know, man, we beat them in the snow. We're gonna get to go back out there and we're gonna get to do it to them again. We're gonna we're gonna beat them. Beat them into the ground. Like That was so much fun last year their defense was was bad. It kind of imploded after after, even though they were still really good. After that loss to Oakland at five and five. You're right, Mike, that that was the point. I was like, all right. They still have a chance to limp out of the division in the playoffs. But it's it's probably not going to be another Super Bowl winning year. Especially with a lot with now they had lost it to Green Bay. They lost a Denver lost to Oakland.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 39:23

Well, I actually I actually thought that was gonna be the last game a loss that year until they went into the playoffs because I felt like oh, this is the same thing as last year. They were five and five. You know, okay, you're almost right. Yeah, almost right. You know, they couldn't you know, they're gonna catch fire. And, you know, I thought because of what happened to you before. Even as a kid I kind of felt like, okay, one at home, but to go out to Oakland. What's in Gannon? Jerry Porter. Jerry Rice, Tim Brown. Charlie Garner, Rowan Williams. Oh, no, it was it might have been sandals anyways. Um, yeah, he was okay. So, um, you know, we've gone back 18 years, but, um, it's like, man, like, I'm not so sure. We could weigh less. It's only lose by seven. I felt the same way that I felt but the Rams gonna get before it's like, okay, like, still hung in there with them. Like, I felt like we get them at home this time. We'll get them again. So the likes I felt like I was allowed to get we were gonna lose. Um, they did catch fire for a second but then I said it Got it kind of got put out towards the end, but I thought we would move on. I still thought that Ron was coming. I was still confident.

Michael Marcangelo: 40:31

I mean, you're not wrong way because after that loss the pages then go on doing three in a row, they beat the Vikings 2417 the lions 2212 and Drew Bledsoe, the Buffalo Bills. 2717. So again, right, this is that whirlwind of 2002. People want to say that this was an irrelevant year, it's pretty relevant because it gave us we literally saw the 2000 patriots and the 2001 patriots all in the same season. Right? The other eight and five, they just beat another division, another division team. The lions were obviously they're not good. The Vikings were good, right? They still were pretty good that year. And now you're now you're sitting back and okay. There's a there's three games, there's three games of the season, you're eight and five you had been here before to your point right now all you need to do is do what Bill Belichick and Tom Brady would go on to do for the for the next 18 years. And not lose in November or December. Right. So you feel you're feeling good again, but this is a manic This is a manic season. You're eight and five now right? So is are you focused less on the Celtics and more the Patriots again?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 41:32

Yeah, I'm definitely back to them at this time. I mean, uh, you know, I'm like, Okay, cool. Like, you know, now I can, I could read the game, so to speak, I can, I can watch them come back. And then, you know, we lose to Tennessee. And it's just like,

Michael Marcangelo: 41:48

not only lose, not only lose, like,

Rayshawn Buchanan: 41:49

yeah, 2020 3047

Michael Marcangelo: 41:53

by Steve McNair and the Titans,

Rayshawn Buchanan: 41:54

right, so they only they only score in the third quarter. So that's the only points that got in the game. And, you know, and I mean, you know, hindsight is 2020 but it's like, you know, I think some of us forget how good that Tennessee team was. So, you know, um, you know, Javan jawanda. curse. You know, Kevin Dyson, my guy Eddie, Georgia. I had one of his jerseys growing up. That guy was the guy was a beast coming out of Ohio State. So, you know, yeah. Steve McNair. Frank the tank wide check, you know, like, so they have a really good team. And, you know, the team was so bold as he moved to the AFC Championship game against us, if I'm not mistaken. So McNair into being caught up not that year, but he had to become an MVP. So, you know, it was disappointing to see that after going on a winning streak where maybe you just had to win one or two games after that. You're shooting for the playoffs because the AFC East had been what has always been under knowing that I'm at Tom Brady's brain that time was subpar. So but it was unfortunate to see to end it like that.

Joe Malkin: 42:56

Yeah, I mean beat Tennessee or New York, and you're in the playoffs, right? You win the AFC East because the Jets went on to win the East at nine and seven. Had you beaten Tennessee you would have been 10 and six and it would have been a different story. And it it's interesting we look at this season and I look at it through two lenses. I look at it one through the lens of the 1314 year old kid that I was looking at going on man like these guys won the Super Bowl last year, like what's going on? And then I look at it from from my 32 year old self now and go all right. You won the Super Bowl with a rookie quarterback with a pretty veteran team and a lot of positions. And then you go into the next year and and you finish nine and seven but you've beaten Pittsburgh, you've beaten Kansas City, you split the season with the Jets who again, I mean, they won the division so they weren't a bad football team at the time. You sweep the bills with with Drew Bledsoe there and like, like Ray said, I mean probably wasn't expected. So as myself now I look back at this season. I've maybe not in the in the last 10 years. But in the first 10 years, if I were 32 back in 2002 looking at the season, I'd be like, Oh yeah, that's pretty good. That's not bad. It's it could have been worse. But again, one thing goes a different way. And and they're they're in the playoffs again. And looking back at this team, like Mike said the defense was okay. I mean, they give a 417 yards and a 24 to 17 winning against Minnesota.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 44:42

Yeah, but I don't know. But that to me to be fair that off that Minnesota offense was was phenomenal.

Joe Malkin: 44:48

I understand. But But I mean, like they they were Mike said it earlier that they were given up a lot of after those first couple games of the season where they only gave up to 83 and 200 to the Jets respective to the Steelers and jets respectively. I mean, they gave up Oh, except for one other game. They gave up over 300 yards in every single game. And then 40 of those yards were rushing. Yeah. And 140 of those yards were rushing in towards the end of the season. They were giving up 350 Plus, except for one game and that was against the bears, which they won 3330 so I mean, the defense was just deteriorating. One game goes a different way. I mean, they probably don't win the Superbowl again. But again revisionist history I, wow, this season was actually better than it looked on the surface when we started this course. And so

Michael Marcangelo: 45:38

now now you're now you're home at Gillette, right? It's snowy, you're playing the dolphins, you're down 2413 after the third quarter. And so in my mind, I'm like, no way. Like this would be totally a Boston sports team like to just to, just to really chill with the end. But actually, I was wrong. What they would what they would go on to do is Tom Brady would lead another fourth quarter comeback to set up a game winning field goal by adding monetary in the snow, actual add the Patriots beat the dolphins to go to nine and seven. But then Green Bay, just just lays a frickin goose at just an egg on the field. And they lose the Jets 4217 and the Patriots out of the playoffs. So again, for those of you listening at home, you may not believe us. This is what we were used to almost getting there doing everything in your power to get there. And then something happens at the end. And guess what? You're not going to the playoffs you're going home?

Joe Malkin: 46:32

Well, the Packers had already had already locked up the NFC north, right. So at that point, they were like, you know what, this was kind of another start of something new at that point in time. I don't remember too much before this, but when when a lot of teams would have registered their dudes in week 17. So I don't think far have played in that game. I don't think Terry Glen played in that game,

Michael Marcangelo: 46:58

or Glen Glen may have that. I don't know if he was a bonafide star greenback As for what I remember. This is only there for that one year. Yeah, he was he wasn't that great. He wouldn't he should have been great. But then he kind of he suffered around and then went and then wound up in Dallas again in a couple years. But Glenn was never the same as he was like on like the 1997 patriot.

Joe Malkin: 47:18

red fire actually did play in that game. He went 16 to 33 for 172. And you know, who was his backup that year? Doug Peterson, the current head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles interesting. He went six of eight for 43 yards and a touchdown that game with a quarterback rating of 120 6.6 probably the best game of his career. But yeah, so I mean, they still play there, guys. So let's forget what I said. Let's go back to what you said, Mike. I mean, the Packers just laid down in front of the Jets. I mean, they had won their division already. So there's a man Mike Sherman and his guys. What? We're good.

Michael Marcangelo: 47:55

It was just, it was just such a weird moment. Ray, right? Because Brady brings us back. The field goal is good. I remember like I was at my grandmother's house again, like celebrating like, yes, yes, they won. They won, they won. And then I realized, and then I realized I'm celebrating a team that isn't going to make the playoffs like what were your emotions like rayshawn when you watch that game and then later found out that you've been eliminated for the playoffs?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 48:19

Yes, I mean, obviously, you know, you got that feeling your height let's go you know, just give us a shot. Just get there get to the dance. No, so use of March Madness reference just get to the dance. Let's just see what we can do. Right? Obviously I feel like they were going to be a wild card team because we have seven you know, we're going to get a bye but I just thought okay great. Like you know, get there. Just figure it out once you get there and then obviously seeing that Green Bay at one it was like wow, because I see you know to this day, man like the fact that we're just one division that year. Still has me a shop on Chad frickin Pennington. Um, I'll say it one more time. Chad freakin Pennington.

Joe Malkin: 49:00

Better Chad Pennington uh Mark Sanchez

Rayshawn Buchanan: 49:04

now yeah oh me oh yeah, actually no, I should not say that by no chipettes actually was better get more attention. I think if you put paint on those teams later on that decade at which the conference championship they get sober one of those two times which happened in a different room. Um, but you know, it was it was crazy to me cuz I'm like, they want world beaters on office. I mean, what you get, you know, the bernese coals on Santana moss was okay. You know, um, what was Curtis Marcel there at that time? So, okay, Curtis Martin said Okay, great, but it's like you know, um, I don't know when Corbett was on a team and now but it's like they weren't they weren't the same team that went to the AFC Championship Game four years before they lost the Denver so it was kind of shocking to me that they did they won um, but I mean like I said, at the end of the day, you know, you have to you know, do your job and we didn't do our job when it mattered most of that season. Which is why we run outside looking in

Joe Malkin: 50:03

not to make this the the Jets our for but looking at that roster. That's a pretty good team to go nine and seven. I mean, Curtis Martin, ran for 1094 yards and seven touchdowns. Wink rabbet had 51 catches for 691 yards and nine touchdowns that season. So kind of a bit of a surprise. I mean, they have a burning question. Santana moss Curtis Martin Lamont Jordan, is that is that the team that beat I'm 17 and beat the coach like 41 to like that. Is that the same team and that season?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 50:37

Yeah, either that season or

Joe Malkin: 50:39

nothing in the playoffs. That's the wild card round.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 50:43

Yeah. I mean, and Oh, God, I did I did. I was like, oh, like, maybe, maybe. I was like a desire to be.

Joe Malkin: 50:57

Lay down. Oh, my 41 nothing to pay him any. I said, Oh, Lord, I said that I said that spoof. You play to win the game. Peyton Manning's what was probably my favorite of all time, I really liked Peyton Manning. But looking back on him like that was the kind of guy he was in the playoffs a lot of the time until that season. But again, not to make it about the Colts or the Jets. But this is what's so much fun about this. This and rewrap Mike is looking back at these teams and looking at this jets team. They should have been so much better than nine and seven. They should have beat the Patriots twice like the Patriots should have been eight Nate and and been packing it up. And but then. So so great looking back at these games, kind of our heyday as young fans and seeing these names. And you know, I mean, this jets team that was so good, Pittsburgh, Oakland and you look back and say, Wow, man, did we belong there? And at the time, the answer was probably no. I mean, you look at our roster, and you know, rate reset, and earlier, you know, I did too, I mean, I wasn't excited about the well, I just really suddenly Steven Naismith I got a channel that bring that back. I wasn't excited about the draft. But looking at these rosters and looking at these, you know that, that that 30 to 14 winning 44 to seven winning against the jets and Steelers to open up that season. I mean, that that was when they were still feeling it. And then it started to wear off in that Kansas City. Game, not to go back and recap the season again. But that's where it started to wear off that 4138 against Kansas City. And then it slowed down. And then like Ray said, you get to the bears game. And it's like, we're gonna pick this back up. And then an Oakland team that really, I mean, lost by seven but probably could have argued that they should have run all over us. And then we'd be too. I mean, Minnesota Yes, was very good offensively as Ray said, but then he roll over a lions team. That wasn't great. And I mean, I don't I don't think the Patriots belonged, necessarily in the Superbowl squeaking into the playoffs may have been a different conversation.

Michael Marcangelo: 53:04

You know, now we've come to the conclusion of the Patriots. They finished that season nine and seven, they did not make the playoffs. There are they ranked 10th in the league on offense 17th in the league on defense, which is which is just it's mind boggling. When you think about everyone that was on that defense, right? You still had Ty law you still have lawyer Malloy, you still had Richard Seymour tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Mike Grable, I mean, everyone that held the glue together in 2001, should see more. Yeah, you also, this season, right? There were so many moments when you when you rally behind them, they got into dog fights, and they came out the other side victorious, they came back from being down 2413. But at the end, you're left thinking, Okay, maybe they are a 917, maybe the 11 and five thing last year was like was a fluke, because, you know, as we're heading into the sunset of this, after the season, Bill Belichick is 28 and 23, including the playoffs as the head coach of the Patriots, that's mediocre.

Joe Malkin: 54:05

What's interesting about looking back at that time, right, like to look at this defense, look at the names that are on it. You know, on paper, this team should have been better than nine and seven with that defense. The offense was young, but that defense was was veteran and that maybe they should have been better. I still look at these other teams in the division and in the in the conference and say, oh, man, like those teams were really good. And to have beaten a few of them is good. But, you know, I, I look, I look back at it, and say that 28 and 23 for belcheck. To this point in his career as an England Patriots coach, we'll take it because in years past prior to Parcells, which was less than 10 years before this point in time, because Parcells was a craft hire and crafted by the team until 1994. So 28 and 23 mediocre by today's standards, but um, we all know that I'm the one that's like, Who's the next guy to go, who's the next coach to go. At that point, I there would be no reason they use 28 and 23. And he has a Super Bowl and three seasons. And generally I feel like you got to give especially an NFL head coach. A lot of times unless the the locker room atmosphere is really bad, Allah below Brian and Houston

Unknown: 55:39

you got to give a head

Joe Malkin: 55:41

coach at least three years in belcheck was five games over 500 with a Super Bowl victory.

Michael Marcangelo: 55:47

So Ray, right three seasons in you met you go 511 year one missed the playoffs? Obviously we know what happened in 2011. And five they win the Super Bowl right now your nine and seven Miss playoffs again. What do you think about Bill Belichick? What do you think about the the new patriots regime? You know, after the 2002 season?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 56:06

Yeah, I have to say like, at the end of the season, I felt like 2001 was a fluke. Um, you know, as we mentioned early in the show, like Boston for so long had been a team that almost got it done. And yes, we got it done the chosen one, but to have that sustained level of greatness just felt so surreal. And just so out of reach right? Now, later on subsequently, we find out that that does happen. But at that at that moment, it's just like, man, like, okay, you know, I can't go I can't keep going up and down with this roller coaster. But, you know, hindsight is 2020 in the same breath to go 511 your first year to flip that around and go 11 to five The next year, and you go nine to seven. You know, now I could look at someone who's starting to say, okay, there was an upward trend. But even then I felt like man, this is kind of inconsistent. I wonder a bit shocked the VA guy let go. Um, but I also I also felt like this team is not going to get they're not gonna sustain that level. unless some guys that would just draft it. You know, take it up a notch and madman today ever.

Joe Malkin: 57:13

So Oh, but we finally had back to back winning seasons, right? I mean, I don't think you can look at Bella check after the 2002 season and call for his job and not not that that's necessarily what either one of you were doing. But I think we talked about it when we did the the rewrap of the 2001 season where people were calling for his job after 2000 which was probably warranted. And I think that was also because we had seen an unceremonious split of the Patriots with ourselves. You know, Pete Carroll came in and we all know he's a different dude. But he gets things done in Seattle, he got things done at USC after he left here. And then and then Belichick comes in and he's unproven. Nobody knows what he's gonna do. He really didn't have much of much respect of, of this fan base, not to mention other teams. So after 2000 would have been the year to go but now you're telling me that the New England Patriots after decades of just floundering and flopping around and not being able to put anything I mean, we had some really good players here in the years before parcels. And since before Kraft bought the team and Parcells came in as the head coach. But, I mean, we had something to build off of now. Like we had something exciting to look at like even nine and seven for this town at that time. You know, now it would be unthinkable, right? I mean, what what happens if this 2020 team goes nine and seven? I mean, everybody's gonna just attribute it to 2020. But it's it's what I've been saying for years since since Brady got a little bit older but but back then, Damn, I'm a second year quarterback, a young tight end, two young receivers and a lot of promise with a with a very good veteran defense that Yeah, I had some injuries and fell off towards the back end of that season in 2002. But Nah, man, we got so much to look forward to nine and seven. I've said it like five times already. But nine and seven back to back winning seasons after a crappy 2000 season and a Super Bowl ring. belcheck wasn't going anywhere. And I didn't want them to and and I just now as a 30 year old, I look back at it and say somebody seems pretty good. And we probably didn't deserve to be there.

Michael Marcangelo: 59:31

Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking, you know, so like, my dad and my uncle were huge patriot fans, right? So they told me like there was there was one year and every decade that the Patriots showed up, there was 7685 1996. I was like, Okay, well, maybe 2001 they showed up and they want it. So we'll just our high get a little higher this time. Maybe we'll just have to wait another 10 years. And after 2002 I'm thinking you know, again, like a Boston sports fan. Well, at least we did it at least they did it once like I saw them do it. It's great. But look, I mean, this is going to be towards a segue for the 2003 championship rewrap but little did we know that this was this season could actually be pointed to as where the greatness was, was was really cemented the things that happened in this year. Add them to an offseason that we will talk about in future episodes that that defined the Patriots in 2003 and 2004. So guys, like any parting words, for the 2002 New England Patriots,

Joe Malkin: 1:00:37

a disappointing season, as a kid who had just watched your team win a Super Bowl, I think, as a teenager who grew up watching this team lose all the time, and, and this was just exciting. had been at the Super Bowl, and you're like, it's gonna happen all the time. But then you kind of have your expectations tempered by the guy, you go to games with every year, every week, and he's like, Hey, man, I've been doing this for 42 years, like, don't get used to this, because this may not happen. Well, you know, I know that, you know, Ray's mom said the same thing. And we probably heard it from again, an uncle, a father, a grandfather of you know, hey, this is Boston, like, you know, but this is also where we became Boston, or at least started to and we started playing that underdog role and and rolled with it. And it's, it's paid off.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 1:01:30

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, like, I've had that moment of disappointment to us. I felt that a one was a fluke, afterwards, but, you know, luckily, it didn't stay there, and then stay in mediocrity, so to speak, like 28 and 23 was the lowest that ever and ever was gonna look for Bill. And, you know, it was, you know, thankfully, Robert Kraft and, you know, and the rest of the ownership trusted in what what Bill was building, he trusted way purely was going on, and just what the coaches have overall wanted to do for the vision. So I'm glad that they didn't stop there. And, you know, I'm thankful that players on that team contributed to winning going forward. So, um, you can't you can't have the you can't have the greatness without the, you know, without the lumps, so we'll just leave it at that.

Joe Malkin: 1:02:23

I forgot Scott Pioli was the GM of that team. I really liked Scott Pioli. And I think, I think Bill did too. And it was time for him to move on when he did a few years after this. But man, he was so good at putting these things together and keeping them together.

Michael Marcangelo: 1:02:40

Absolutely. So guys, thank you so much for for joining us for joining me here tonight. Thank you all for listening. That will do it for this edition of the championship hangover for rayshawn Buchanan, Joe Malkin. My name is Michael Mark Angeles. Stay tuned for the next championship hangover when we discuss the 2005 Boston Red Sox, but until then, we'll talk to you guys later.