Kayfabe Critics: From the Vault - The Montreal Screwjob

Vault Episode Setup And SummerSlam Tease

SPEAKER_07 0:00

What's up, everybody? It's DK Sizzle. Um sports content is at a premium in the dog days of summer, but one thing we do have is the world wrestling entertainment side of our podcast and our show, K-Fabe Critics. Coming up later in the week, we will have Mike Marcangelo and Hollywood and Ray Sean Buchanan previewing SummerSlam this year, 2026. But I thought a little throwback, a little vault episode from all the way back in 2020 might be kind of fun. We used to call K-Fape Critics Cheap Heat, and in the second episode, they allowed me on to talk about the Montreal Screw Job, talk about Bret Hart, talk about Shawn Michaels, and I had a ton of fun recording this episode. I always reference how much fun this episode was recording, and I can't believe it's been this long. So if you are new to the podcast, uh or if you just want to revisit us hashing out the Montreal Screw Job because WWE SummerSlam's on your mind, then this is the show for you. I really hope you enjoy it. So enjoy Cheap Heat, now known as K Fabe Critics, formerly known as Cheap Heat, and always on Missing the Point.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, you are about to listen to the most entertaining and informative wrestling podcast out there. That is not a prediction, it is a spoiler, and this is Kay Fave Critics.

Meet The Crew And Surprise Guest

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Damn right. And today we actually have a surprise guest, someone that is on most of our shows, but you would not peg as a wrestling podcaster. What I will say is that the entirety of this show was spawned by Ray Sean Buchanan. In a Slack message, two days ago, he sent us a little picture that said, Who would you remove? Shawn Michaels, uh Stone Cold, Steve Austin, the Undertaker of the Rock. And this special guest said Sean. That man is DK Sizzle, Dave Clark. And today we are talking about the Montreal screwdriver. We are talking about the rivalry between the heartbreak kid Shawn Michaels, my favorite, and the best there is, the best there was, and the best that there ever will be DK's favorite, Brett Hart. So DK, welcome. Welcome to Chi Pete.

SPEAKER_07 3:36

I'm honored. I'm on, I'm honored. I uh I've been a fan of this podcast since the very first episode. And uh and and I I can't believe I'm finally here talking to the real deal, um, this crew. I mean, I I'm I feel so lucky that I can come on and defend the honor of uh uh Canada's favorite son, my favorite wrestler of all time, Barette the Hitman Heart and the Heart Foundation. Um, yeah, I'm just I'm really happy to be here and I I can't wait to get into it with you guys. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Yeah, and I think, you know, for for all of us, we we were planning on doing another show right right around Royal Rumble time. We had just done a Survivor Series show. We touched on the screw job, and it's been 23 years since that that happened, but we are now approaching the 11-year anniversary of when Brett the Hitman Heart made his return to WWE television and made amends with Shawn Michaels.

SPEAKER_07 4:28

So we just passed the we would have we would have just passed the um screw job anniversary too, right? That was in November.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Yeah. Well we can so so we touched on on the Survivor Series show, but we didn't like do a dedicated show. But leave it to Ray to stir the fucking pot and and to bring you out of the woodwork to to just go after my boy Shawn Michaels. So the topic of today's show is gonna be the events leading up to the screw job, the actual screw job itself, the aftermath for both uh competitors and and even Vince and the company. Um, and then I think finally at the conclusion of this show, we will say who who's to blame. I will give you a spoiler. I blame Brett. DK blames everybody but Brett.

SPEAKER_07 5:13

I mean, I I blame Vince. If I had to pick one person, I blame Vince. Um, I think that it's tough to peg anyone else with individual responsibility. I think everybody, I think there's a lot of people that had hands in it. I think there's people that um were bystanders and let it happen that shouldn't have. But if I was gonna bring charges in a court of law uh or in the squared circle, it would be with Vince McMahon.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Okay.

Why Bret Hart And Shawn Matter

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Now with Craig and Ray Sean, we're talking about two of the greatest in-ring performers in in probably wrestling history, right? Bret Hart is a top five in my book. Sean's number one. I just think he was as an as an as an all-around performer. But for you guys, when we're talking about Brett, we're talking about Sean. Craig, I'll go to you first. Like, what comes to mind?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Uh, as far as technic as far as storytelling and technical wrestling, you know, for me, it's always been it's always been Bret Hart and Ric Flair. Because those two have been, you know, in my mind's most, you know, been able to tell a story. I don't think those two could do it much more than anyone else. Shawn Michaels could just entertain. And you know, he could still do it now when they get paid millions of dollars to fight in another country, but that's another story for another day. Um, but as far as I I enjoy the technical aspect of wrestling, and as far as that goes, it's it's Brett and it's Rick Flair, and there, you know, there are a couple of others, but that's another conversation for another day. If we're focusing on Bret Hart right now, and there's no doubt that Bret Hart's been the most one of the most you know entertaining in-ring performers in the history of wrestling, not just WWE, WWF, but any of the federation.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, I mean, and that you know, that that's so true. And when I when I think about those two guys, I think about two guys that carried the business in the 90s, right? You know, they were they were a part of tag teams, legendary tag teams, uh, in the early 90s. You know, uh Sean Michaels has that moment when he, you know, he sweeps him music's um, you know, uh Marty Gennetti through through Bridge Beefcakes uh window, and he, you know, he finally goes solo. Um, and then you know, uh Bret Hart breaks apart from the Hart Foundation and goes on a solo run and just really just has a great run. So uh like I said, we it it can't be stated enough. Bret Hart as a technical wrestler probably is the best. And like granted, that's that's what that was his his motto. I'm the best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be. And then as we know, as an entertainer, um, but really as a performer too. Like, I mean, he entertained with his dancing and his moves, and obviously had a great uh had a great theme song I'm talking about Shawn Michaels there. Uh it was just awesome to see these guys go at it in the 90s. Um, and really, I mean, the the rivalry really lasted really over 20 years. It wasn't just something that happened through the 90s, like it was at its peak in the 90s, obviously, because they you know they was they was peak they were both peak performers, but like I said, I I just think about two guys that carried uh the business in the 90s, and the business is not where it is today, uh, had it not been for that rivalry at that time.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Yeah, I I mean if you if you look at it, right? Like wrestling in the 80s was Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Andre the Giant. It was it was the for especially for the WWF.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Macho man, Randy Savage, you know.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Yeah, with the exception of a few though, like in in the 80s, especially in the WWF, it was those jacked up six foot six, 300-pound beef cake, beefcakes. And then you had guys, you know, sprinkled in there like Macho Man, Ricky Steamboat that could work Jake Roberts. But it wasn't until Brett and Sean uh had their tag teams with the Rockers and the Hart Foundation, and they kind of broke apart that you saw the next iteration of what wrestling was going to be. People that could actually go in there and work for more than 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_07 8:44

Yeah, and I think you have to give, and uh, you know, obviously we've established my bias for Brett Hart um right off the bat, but I think you have to give Brett a lot of credit for that transition because in the 80s, you had Hulk Hogan essentially carry wrestling, you know. I mean, a lot of those guys that you just mentioned do deserve credit, but Hulk Hogan was the face of the of the Federation for the entire decade, pretty much. And when the steroid scandal hit, um, and McMahon, you know, as we all know, became dangerously close to going under, you know, like that that it almost ruined him. Um, if it wasn't for kind of bad litigation and kind of sketchy doctor's notes, um we the WWF, as we know it, wouldn't be here. Um, but Brett comes in and is with the with the guys you have left on the roster after the scandal, Brett is the only viable and best option to become a champion, you know. Um, Randy Savage is old by that point, you know, uh a lot of the guys that are left from that kind of steroid era or jacked up era, Hogan era, whatever you want to call it, they're they're just not there's nobody viable to to give the belt to and and to carry the to to carry the Federation. And then, you know, here comes Brett, you know, like and he breaks off from the tag teams, goes on this solo run, and it's and he's perfect. You know, he just completely fits the bill. And I really I just think he deserves a ton of credit for that initial championship, uh, really helping the the Federation out.

Steroid Scandal And Bret’s Rise

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah, I mean listen, Vince knew that he was in trouble, right? Uh obviously with the steroid scandal, which is why it wouldn't be the first time either. Yeah, if you if you think back back in 1991, he went and plucked out Ric Flair from WCW at the time to bring in someone that could actually keep people in the building as a main eventer, wrestle a 30-minute match instead of what Hogan was doing in case. By the way, just so that you guys know, a little bit of a side note this is when Vince McMahon did sign over control of WWF at the time to his wife, Linda McMahon, to make her the CEO because he thought he was going to prison. So he wanted to keep the company afloat.

SPEAKER_07 10:37

Because he had his hands on the steroid stuff, right? Like it was the the the charges weren't being brought against the WWF, the charges were getting brought against Vince McMahon for supplying his athletes with because he did start like a weightlifting federation, and that's where yeah, that's where it all spawned from. And that weird urologist in Hershey, Pennsylvania, or whatever was going on. It's it's all very strange.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

It's all very but this. I mean, this is another thing, right? Uh wrestling is not a sport, right? So, how can you say that steroids are not all are should not be allowed in there? Like if they don't drug test you at the Emmys, they probably should, but they don't. This is not a real sport, but we I digress. So, Bret Hart wins the title from Ric Flair in 1992. He is the guy for in that company. You know, there were a couple champions between 1992 and 1996, like Diesel, who you know, Bob Backlund, those were just Bret Hart was the face of that company.

SPEAKER_07 11:28

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Mike. He was the Intercontinental champ before that, which I think was typically given to like it was kind of a technical wrestler champ, or you know, a a belt that you would give to somebody that wasn't from the US, and you wouldn't usually see that that leap, right? Or am I am I totally off base there?

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Well, it it was that that title was the workhorse title, right? Like guys like Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, who never won a WWE championship, but macho man Randy Savage did. He held that title first and then went on to be a WWF champion. So the the the the theory here here is, and you can jump in if if you want, Ray, is that if you were good enough to be intercontinental champion, it meant that you could have a 25 to 30 minute match, you could bring people into the building or make sure that they're happy for being brought in because of Hogan, and that means the company had you know future plans.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, I'm I mean that that's how that title in the 90s, even before they had like serious prestige, right? So, you know, if you were giving that it was given like to like the upper mid-card guide, so you know, you wasn't maybe the main event. I mean, now there was some main events for the IC title in the 90s. So you want to go to WrestleMania 10 when we with Sean Michaels and Razor Ramon. Um, you know, we talked about before, yeah, we talked about before we got on the air, but uh the match with you know British Bulldog and and and uh Bret Hart at Wembley Stadium in 92 at uh SummerSlam in '92. Like though those those matches really they were main events, you know. And you know, so if you was given you was given that title, you know, they was like, you know what, you may not be the guy right now, but you are next up. But also, you know, like we talked about Vince knew that he could trust you. Yeah, he could, yeah, exactly. He could trust you, right? He he could he could trust Brett. Um, and he knew that Brett wasn't going to let him down or let the company down. So that's where that stemmed from. And like I said, he he hit on Brett and it was uh it was gold from that from 92 on.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Yeah, and the same thing, right? So these two Brett and Sean were pretty much placed on a collision course the second they were both in WWF, right? Their tag team, uh their their tag teams were were identically uh relevant and popular with the fan base. When the Hart Foundation was bad, everybody hated them. When they were good, everyone wanted to see them win. They were one of the best tag teams, if not the best. You know, you want to say like the Road Warriors, Harlem Heath. There's I mean, I think that it's the Hart Foundation and everybody else. The Rockers were the the first incarnation of like the Hardy boys, Edging Christian, right? The high flying technical aspect that would that would just really like wow the guys, wow the girls, everything like that. But it was at this time as they're as they're kind of climbing through the ranks where the collision course was set, was set. You know, Brett and Sean faced off in 1992. Nobody really remembers that match. I do, I watched it, it was a clinic. Those two could wrestle, you know. I'll say this, and DK, listen to me because I do love Bret Hart. Bret Hart could have a five-star match with a brimstick. I believe it. I think Sean could do the same, right? Um, but if you think about it, like their careers are both uh go going on the upper trajectory. Bret Hart is champion, he gets screwed out of the belt in '93 because Hogan comes back and they want him to beat Yokozuna at WrestleMania 9. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 14:40

So I have something to say about this. So he however long Brett has the belt for at this point, right? It was it a year, maybe a year or less. Yeah. So the Yokozuma thing is the first example of Bret Hart being treated as a placeholder by Vince McMahon in the WWF, formerly known WWF. He is always, and this is where it starts, always used as a champion until Vince thinks there's something better to come along. And it's to me a little disrespectful to Bret Hart. And at this point, you know, Brett's always loyal with like there. That'll be a through line to what we say uh the through the entirety of this podcast. But this is where it starts. There's stories, you know, believe who you want, but there's stories about his interactions, Brett's interactions with Hulk Hogan. You know, uh Vince McMahon allegedly told Brett that uh Hulk says he'd never drop the belt to you, you're not fit to lace up his boots, he's only gonna drop the belt to Yokozuma. You know, it's uh he confronts Hogan about this. Vince says, Oh, you just heard what you want to hear, Brett. That to me is the very first seed planted by Vince that that says I can treat Bret Hart however I want. This is the it's the month, it's the preamble to the Montreal screw job. So it's important, I think, to to point that out because Hogan still got the clout. Um, you know, it's funny, um uh Yokozuma Yokozuna's not talked about as much as uh today as as he was popular at the time, you know, like he was he got really big really fast, um, you know, no pun intended. And the the uh his popularity was undeniable, but the Brett was the champ, you know, like he was the champ for a year, and he should have gotten some sort of respect to try to get that belt drop back to him. Something like that should have happened, or Hogan should have dropped the belt to him, maybe Yokozuna takes it off him after that. You could have kept that storyline going. It's the first example of him getting skipped over by Vince, and it's certainly not the last, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

But I think that's how Hogan was at that time. Because even whether it was WWF at the time or WCW, like if Hogan didn't feel that he could draw money with you, then you know, you got put on the back burner. And so, I mean, you know, and Brett wasn't Brett yet. I get that. Right, yeah, exactly. And I think that's what happened. So, I mean, remember, you know, Taker comes in, you know, it's not about Taker, but we talked about on the on the last on the last episode. But you know, Taker comes in, you know, it's like, man, this guy's 6'10, 320, or that's what he was being billed as. And you know, he he drops the title the next year to him at at uh at Survivor State. You know, that's that was his first um his first championship run. So it's like, you know, it it that's just it just goes back to that. Like, you know, if you're not if they don't think you can draw money, and they think, you know, and granted, like you said, he Brett wasn't 6'8, 320 pounds, you know, he was six feet, you know, 234, 240. So, you know, not a small guy by normal stature, but compared to what most of the guys drew, money's like he wasn't a warrior, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't Andre the John, he wasn't any of those guys. So, you know, Vince for the longest time hasn't, you know, hadn't put uh put stock in guys that are that small, except Brett and Sean. I said it started with those guys. So that's that's what happened.

SPEAKER_07 17:49

I but did did his draw in Canada, was his draw in Canada big at that point, yeah. Like did he have that kind of pull yet?

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Well they they he he would he was definitely bigger, they were a lot of them were bigger overseas than they were in the states.

SPEAKER_07 18:00

They had things like he wasn't Brett Hart in Canada, most popular man in Canada, can like can draw a crowd anywhere he goes, you know what I mean? Like if he's if he's buying tampons at the Walmart, he'll get 30,000 people watching him. You know, it's not it's he's not there yet. I get that.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

That's no at this point in time, like 92, 93, Brett was very, very, very well liked uh internationally because international fans, wrestling fans, are typically what they call quote unquote smarter wrestling fans, right? So they always yeah, they're they're they're smart. That's right, right. Um so he was always he was always beloved. I think what what what what we saw there in in a WrestleMania 9 in 1993 was the of just a byproduct of Vince going back to the well one too many times with Hogan. He thought he was gonna cash in in Huckle Mania one more time, and also from Hogan's perspective, Brett isn't Brett. And I think like at that point in time, Hogan would would look at things through the prism of will people care if I body slam him, brother, right? And nobody's gonna care if Hogan's body slams Brett. If he body slams Hogan the whole or Yokozuna, the whole place is gonna go nuts.

SPEAKER_07 19:02

Sure, but I'm not asking for Hogan to care. I'm asking at that point for Vince to care because because Brett Well, the two was tied.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

The two were tied. I mean, sure.

SPEAKER_07 19:10

I get it, but it's but Brett did but Brett did pull him out of the steroid era mess that Hogan got him into and in well, actually got him off of if at the end of it. But yeah uh the you know that that he was representative of Brett did that Brett did save the company in some ways there, you know. So I'm just I'm just saying Vince again is the is where I'm pointing the blame. I mean, it's easy to blame Hulk Hogan for a lot of things, he's done a lot of terrible things in his life, but the uh the blame for me again starts there with Vince and ends at the screw job with Vince. But yes, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

But I mean, do you blame Vince though? Do you blame it?

SPEAKER_07 19:41

Not for the first one, not for the first one.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

No, I'm saying, but for going to the well, though. Like, could that mean if like you said, no, no, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_07 19:46

Not not on the first one, not not uh when it came to the to overlooking him for Yokozuna and and not for um how that stuff played out. Like I think maybe in retrospect, if he hadn't known what Brett was gonna be, sure. But like I said, he wasn't Brett yet. I I don't uh I don't blame him for that, but I think it starts to set a precedent, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Yeah, I think so too. And

WrestleMania 10 Sparks Real Tension

SPEAKER_03 20:08

then so then we fast forward to 1994. It's WrestleMania 10, 10th anniversary of Vince McMahon's biggest gamble in the wrestling industry that is paid off. On this, the opening match of WrestleMania 10 was Brett versus Owen. And when I tell you that this is one of the top 10 matches uh of all time, I mean it. I mean the the the story that they told without saying any words in that match was incredible. Uh Brett uh did the job. He he was he was he put his brother over, uh, which you know catapulted Owen into a uh uh about a year-long feud with Brett. Um and then he had another great match with the super flights from the top of the cage.

SPEAKER_07 20:45

Can't forget that.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Yeah, that's SummerSlam '94. Uh and then, but at WrestleMania 10, Brett wrestled twice. He was in the main event against Yokozuna for the WWF championship and won. But people don't really remember that. What they remember from that night is a little thing called the ladder match between Reza Ramon and Shawn Michaels, which stole the entire show. A little bit of a backstory on that. That match was not the first ladder match in WWF history. It was the first televised one, but it was proposed by Brett. Brett said he thought he and Sean could steal the show. And what happened was Sean Sean was in that meeting, Sean went to Vids and said, I want to do it with Scott, his buddy. So they did it, they stole the show. That's where real tension starts arising. But just for you guys, uh, you know, Craig, WrestleMania 10. What is your biggest takeaway?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

I I I I I do remember that that match happened, and then nobody cared about the rest of the card. That match just dominated that entire card. It might have been his biggest match to that point.

SPEAKER_07 21:54

Then he had the biggest heel at the time. He was like my first heel. I remember him so clearly as like my first.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

My first big heel. And then you just you you had that match which went for a while. And then everyone, it seems like everyone just forgets the rest of that card even happened.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I remember the Razor Ramon Shawn Michaels match more than even the Owen Hart and Bret Hart match now. Um, although it was a great match, like I'm not saying that it wasn't because obviously it was, but you know, they they were two of the best at that at that time. But that that's where that that coin phrase Mr. WrestleMania that Shawn Michaels was dubbed, that's where it began. And yeah, to put it to, you know, you're in Madison Square Garden, you know, the biggest stage, really and like when when it comes to WWF, like that was that's their territory, like no other, no other company could come in there. Like that's the fun, that's another fun fact. If you no other wrestling territory could come into Massachusetts Square Garden, but but uh the WWE or WWF at the time. So uh that would that was a phenomenal match. You know, he put Silver Razor Ramon. I think it was it was it was it was uh like a it was an undisputed uh match, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:03

So the backstory of that was Sean actually uh was suspended for I think 90 days because he tested positive for I think it was steroids, but he claims that he was never actually taking steroids. And if you look at him, he I mean he just never looked at that point in time like he was.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Really, his really his whole his whole career, maybe except for the the running over two, maybe when he came back he looked he was a little jacked. Uh he was super jacked in O2.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

He was sent home and Vince said we need the belt, and Sean said, I have it, come get it. So they created a new belt for Razor, and this was like the unification match. Um, the reason why I bring this up is I I think uh Dave, just to just to just to keep uh telling the story about how much parallel there was between these two careers because they were both in in a perfect world, there would be in one generation of Shawn Michaels and then the next generation of Bret Hart or either or. In the 90s, they were both there at the same time when they both couldn't be the man. So now, you know, we're we're coming off the heels of of WrestleMania 10. Um the next couple of years, things get a little bit hairy for Sean. He was a he he, you know, obviously uh he will even tell you that he was uh he was a bad person backstage. He didn't have his personal life in order. There was a time in 1995 where he mild off to uh I I believe it was a Marine at a bar and was jumped by 10 people, got his ass handed to him. He then had to relinquish the title again because he couldn't, he wasn't fit to perform. All the while, Brett is the workhorse.

SPEAKER_07 24:36

Yeah, I mean, Brett Brett Brett claims himself he hasn't he missed two days in the entire in his the entirety of his WWE career, you know. I mean, this it's he's ultimate professional.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Always showed up, always delivered. Uh, which brings us to Royal Rumble 1996. Sean had already won the uh the one back in 1995, gone into WrestleMania 11, lost to Kevin Nash, Diesel. That's his friend, it's fine.

SPEAKER_07 25:01

So, so just interject here, sorry. That at this point, if we're skipping ahead, Lex Luger's already stolen SummerSlam from Brett, right? At this point, because that was in '95.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

He stole the Royal Rubble from Brett in 1994, which is why they Yeah, so they try him out as champion.

SPEAKER_07 25:19

It doesn't work. He can't put asses in seats. They try, like you just mentioned, Diesel out as champion, it doesn't work at all because they have that the famous um the what do they used to call it? The house party, the house viewer thing. Oh, in your house. In your house. In your house thing that that did like the worst numbers of a of a uh pre-recorded WWF event like of all time. They immediately get dieseled out both times, both champions don't work out. Who do they go back to? They go back to Brett because he's like Mr. Consistency, like you were just saying, he's a good company man. Uh, you know, and at the start of the 90s, he's a good company man with the Yokozuna stuff. He's a good company man. Uh, after Lex Luger turns out to suck, he's a good company man after Diesel turns out to not be able to sell tickets. And that then brings us uh up to date. I just do want to skip that stuff because it it's important for Brett's resume.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

I think they were so desperate to make Lex Luger work.

SPEAKER_07 26:09

It seemed to me that they were desperate to make anyone but Brett work. That's that's how I view it.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

That they did never put the belt on Lex.

SPEAKER_07 26:17

No they not, no. Well, well, but that see, I'll tell you why it was confused in my head. I'll tell you why it was confused in my head because Bret Hart is Mr. SummerSlam. So if he loses at a SummerSlam or at a Royal Rumble, that feels almost worse to me than a uh WWF championship.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Just so you you know what it was with Lex Luger though? Like, because now we we already talked about Hulk Hogan going away and not being that guy, and you know, he's we're trying to figure out what's gonna be next. They were looking to make Lex Luger the next Hulk Hogan. That that was the problem. Lex Express, yeah. Lex Express had the you know the Torah bus and he's wearing the red, white, and blue. Send him all around the country, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 26:54

You know, so it was just like you know, he just didn't have the personality or he he couldn't draw the people in, like uh but that year, that year that they're they're doing that with Lex Luger, Bret Hart's working away and gets feud of the year with Jerry Lawler, and that's the best storyline of that year, you know, like that's the that's the best thing that that we see all year. So it's like you know, you can keep skipping them, you can keep looking them over, but he's your best option still, you know. Because like you said, Sean's uh out of the picture by his own uh decisions at that point, so right.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

And and that and I think that's that's test stuff of what happens for WrestleMania 12.

WrestleMania 12 Iron Man Classic

SPEAKER_03 27:26

So yep, so great segue, Ray. So uh Shawn Michaels wins his comeback match in the 9096 Royal Rumble. He he goes on and he they're they're going to then this is a story that we all wanted to see. It was uh Shawn Michaels against Bret Hart. Both of them were baby faces, they're good guys. So what the the what the WWE did here uh in in the lead up, they made Sean look like John Claude Van Damme. I mean, if you if you go back and you and you look at some of the video clips, he was doing upside down, uh upside down push-ups. He was, I mean, he was just doing everything, and they sent a a film crew up to uh up to Calgary to to show Brett training, but he had just had I think like meniscus surgery. So they had they they got a clip of him running, and he was running in the winter. He wasn't running fast, he looked like an old man. They had video clips of him swimming, he can't swim, he admitted that, and so he felt like they Brett felt like they did it, they did like Rocky montages, right?

SPEAKER_07 28:24

Like that was that was the big thing, like that was Sean.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Running up the bleachers, the like I said, doing the upside down putt it was it was unbelievable. So Brett feels like WWF is pushing Sean at his at his expense, and he felt disrespected by the way that he was being presented. This uh, this was the first of what was supposed to be three matches. Behind the scenes, Brett agreed to drop the belt and help launch Sean with the understanding that this would set up a series of three WrestleMania main events, culminating with uh Sean beating him for the second out of the two out of three times at WrestleMania 14. So this match, 60-minute Iron Man match, had never happened in WWE before. Vince was very, very apprehensive to put an hour-long match on a pay-per-view. Business was not great at this time. Uh WCW uh was really just they weren't kicking their ass yet, but they were getting all the stars. They already had Luger, they already had Hogan, they already had Sting, uh Ric Flair. Literally, the list goes on.

SPEAKER_07 29:19

Did the did the um did the champ did the championship steal happen uh with the women's champ yet?

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Yep, so in 1995. 1995, right? Yeah, so in 1995, uh Alondra Blaze def defected to WCW, showed up with the belt in the trash as Medusa on live television. This is very important. I'm glad that you brought it up, Dave. Uh, on live television, on a live nitro, she said that this title was meaningless and dropped the WWF championship into the trash can. That's an important little tidbit to hang on to. I knew it was gonna come up, so once we get to the screw job. But uh I want to just say WrestleMania 12, Iron Man match, those two put on I still think if you have the attention span to go back and watch this, it's it for me that match is perfect.

SPEAKER_06 30:05

It's probably the best it's probably the best main event of all time, I think.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

It's absolutely perfect, and it's because those two were one and one A, in my in my opinion. And you can I know uh Brett is your number one uh DK, but he could not, I mean, I did say earlier that he could have a five-star match with a brimstick, but that match told the story of all stories.

SPEAKER_07 30:27

Even though obviously it's just you know, spoiler alert, it happened uh 30 years ago, but the even though sweet chin music ends it for Brett that night, um it's it's my favorite, probably my favorite Bret Hart match. It's I have I have the I have a couple in my head, but I think it's probably my favorite Bret Hart match. Like you said, if you have the stamina to go back and watch it, um as far as a balance of styles, high flying, acrobatic style versus perfect technical wrestling, submissions, um, and just expert expert storytelling from both guys. So if you if you do have the the patience to go back and watch it, if you were to if you wanted to get somebody into uh the into wrestling, into um WrestleMania's into anything like that, and they have a spare hour, that's the match I would show them.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

All right, Ray. I saw you nodding your head over there. Ray, what are your takeaways from the Iron Man match?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

No, that like you say it's a top five match of of all time. Um, see, to me, the best match of WrestleMania does involve Shawn Michaels, but it wasn't WrestleMania 12, it was actually WrestleMania 25. But we'll we'll get into that another time. Um, that was a perfect story as well, but once again, don't want to get into that. But I mean, it's funny because I think when Shawn Michaels got into the Hall of Fame in 2011, you know, you talked about how, you know, no one really no one really thought that they would be able to buy an hour, you know, like in our in our um match, you know. So the fact that they were able to tell their story, like you said, and you know, really keep keep the audience captivated was just phenomenal. So um it just it just spoke to how styles do make a fight, and that when you put those two guys together, despite working themselves into a shoot and Brett feeling disrespected and Shawn Michaels being crazy backstage and you know doing doing crazy stuff uh all over the place, it just showed that when those guys came together, magic was created and they just knew how to steal the crowd and they knew how to put on a match no matter the time frame. But I can't believe that we didn't bring this up either. Um, his entrance, my god, his entrance coming in when you know, I mean, to which is this no listen, I want to make it clear. There's no way in hell I would have ziplined down to the ring. No way, no how. Like I granted, I don't know why he chose to do that. Um, I there's a story that Vince chose to do it, you know, beforehand, you know, which I guess you can give credit to Vince that Vince won't do uh anything that he's not willing to do. Um, hence is why I think that's why the screwdriver screwdriver came, but we'll get into that uh shortly. Um, but man, I mean that that was that was just phenomenal in itself. Like I was captivated by the interest in itself, and it's like, oh Sean Michaels coming down as you know, it's just you know, so it was just like I'll never forget that. And then like I said, at the end, when he says, you know, the boyhood dream is has come true, and you know, it really did. So um, but I said phenomenal match overall, great story told. And um, but I said, you know, we really found out the best were still yet to come.

SPEAKER_07 33:24

The face off at the start, like it had the heat of a of uh, you know, Muhammad Ali George Foreman um uh rumble in the jungle box match. Like they're they're facing off, they don't even dislike each other really by this point. Uh not to the degree that they're going to. Maybe something's bubbling for Brett already. But you know, they I I remember so clearly being a little kid and watching this. I mean, you know, we're all the same age uh for you guys at home, and like we're all kids when this is happening. Like we're you know, we're talking elementary school here. I was eight. Uh yeah, I was I was seven, I think. And I I remember I remember their face off so clearly, you could feel it. It was electric. You know, and and to in in in the sport, in the sports entertainment world, um, in in WWF wrestling, to create something that tense um as their face-off before an Iron Man match is so rare and and difficult to do. And a big part of it, I think, was because they were about to do it for for a goddamn hour. You know what I mean? Like these two guys are about knew they were in for it, you know. Yeah, they knew they were in for a hell of a workout, um, some pain, and uh, and you know, what probably both of their best matches ever, you know. So it's and and it's it's sad. Like right, what Ray was just talking right there. It's it makes me sad sometimes when I think about the animosity that eventually grew between these two guys. They kind of never really uh got any any any closure, not not in any real sense, because they elevated each other so much. And this is the prime example of that. Like this this WrestleMania is is the prime example of them being so such great foils for one another and uh helping each other out so much because they like you said, they're perfect, they're both perfect. Like you could analyze that match from top to bottom, and you would you couldn't find a mistake from either guy. You know, they're they they keep each other safe, they they pull off every single move, and like Ray was saying, they tell the story. So it's like it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

I think the best part about that match for me is that now nowadays, if you have a uh 60-man or 60-minute Iron Man match, like the the ending is like five to four. That was one-nothing, and it went to overtime. It took 63 minutes or so for one of them to keep their shoulders down for three seconds or longer or to tap out. So that's how you protect the loser in the in a in a sense like that. It was only it was only for three seconds, right? It was one kick, three seconds.

SPEAKER_07 35:39

And it would, but it was it was uh there was a timer, right? Am I am I remembering this correctly?

SPEAKER_03 35:44

So there was a so so time expired. So how this match unfolded was time expired while Brett had Sean in the sharpshooter. That's right. Brett's Brett's walking down the aisle with the title and grill him soon, comes out and says, This match will now go to sudden death. And within you know, three minutes of sudden death, Sean sweet chins him one, two, three. And this is where one of the biggest seeds uh was actually sown for this rivalry. Sean can be seen and heard when he has the title and get him out of my effing ring. Brett heard it.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I love it, I love it though. I love it. Get out of my ring. You're saying this is my moment. I'm the chair, baby.

SPEAKER_07 36:24

You know, this is my moment because because uh, you know, and I'm not trying to let Sean off the hook, but he, you know, maybe he was just excited. I mean, I could I would take that personally too if I was Bret Hart, you know, but but you you should be excited though.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

That that is you know, that's that's your first world title run. Like, yeah, I want everybody off the ring except me and the ref. Raise my hand, let let me go and you know, we could have been a little nicer about it.

SPEAKER_07 36:47

I mean, Brett was putting him over, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I mean, I I I guess, but you know, it's it's a cutthroat of business, baby. As we as we'll go on to learn, yeah, right, as as we as we find out very quickly, but you know, I mean, for that for that night, yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I probably would have said something close to that. Like, I'd have been like, I'm I'm the champ, like I am the man. Um, and I I mean, since I'm so I'm I'm a jerk when it comes to stuff like that, I probably would have been like, now I'm the best there is, yeah, best there was.

SPEAKER_07 37:16

And oh my god, can you imagine if you hit something like that? That rivalry would have accelerated a lot faster than it did, man. That would have been too far.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

That'd have been beautiful, though. I think the goal of any of any wrestling match or moment is to suspend b uh disbelief, right? It's to make everyone at home think this is actually real. Like they make you forget that this is all work. I think sometimes that that does transcend to the athletes in and of themselves. I think Sean's a dick. I think he was a dick then. I think that was a dick move for him to pull. I think you know, before this match, it was understood uh Breta let everybody know that he's gonna take some time off. He had not taken time off in 10 years. He was filming uh uh a TV show that was that was canceled. Well, he was gonna he was gonna go, he was gonna leave. And he and Sean had agreed, you know what? After this match, everyone, the boys already think that we hate each other. Let's keep doing that. Let's just make sure that you and I talk to each other so that we don't so we won't we don't cross any lines. Yeah, yeah. Don't cross any lines, but like let's build this because this is gonna be a three-year feud. So Brett storms out and he's gone from March of 20 uh of 1996 until November of 1996.

Lost Smile And Austin’s Breakout

SPEAKER_03 38:25

During that summer off, he signs an unprecedented 20-year, 20 million dollar contract with WWF.

SPEAKER_07 38:33

Oh, wait, hold on a second. Fill me in here because I thought that the I thought the 20-year 20 million contract, and I could be wrong here, but I thought the 20 million, 20 year contract was oh, yes, you're right. Actually, sorry. Because during the time off, he goes and he gets an offer from uh WCW from Ted Turner's company. He goes back to Vince, he says, I got an offer from WCW. Can you match it? Vince says, No, I can't match that. That's crazy money because it was it was what three million a year for for nine years or nine million for three years. Yeah, so that happens, and then um Vince says no, but then Vince comes back with this bonkers contract with all these kind of rules and stuff. So, okay, yes, I'm caught up. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

So the the whole premise here from Vince was to make Brett Hart the babe Ruth of WWF so that he could always be around, he could always come back, and then he would use those words, right?

SPEAKER_06 39:24

He said that to Brett.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Yeah, I want to make you the babe Ruth. Um, so they they agree, they work out their deal. Um, and you know, and the when this whole thing is going on, one of the things that Brett said is, you know, I think you should work with Steve. He told Sean that I think you should work with Steve because Steve's a great worker. Sean said, I'm gonna work with Diesel, Razor, Hunter, and the kid. That's the click.

SPEAKER_06 39:50

That's that click is then established, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:52

That's the click. Uh little did Sean know that Razor and Diesel would sign the most lucrative contracts that you know in wrestling history, the all the first ever contracts that were guaranteed money at that point um for limit for no dates. So they were gonna get paid no matter what, and they would go off to WCW, they would then form the NWO over the summer of 1996, which again, that moment is there's no attitude ever without the NWO. There's no guaranteed money without the NWO. Wrestling is not wrestling without that, but Sean had nobody to work with, right? So he's working with Vader, he's working with Psycho Sid. Brett comes back at some point.

SPEAKER_07 40:30

He has issues with Vader too, right? Was that it? Did I make that up?

SPEAKER_01 40:33

SummerSlam 96. Everyone had issues with Vader.

SPEAKER_07 40:35

Yeah, Vader wasn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially that one guy on the Kuwait interview. Did you did you guys ever see that?

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 40:41

Him and him and uh him and Taker. Sorry to do a quick tangent here, but Craig can cut this out later, if it's no good. But it's a hilarious video if anyone wants to check it out at home. Vader and Taker are inexplicably in the Middle East on a tour. And it's during the is wrestling fake, is wrestling not fake era, right? Like where it's kind of like wrestling secrets revealed on you know on TNT or whatever on USA. And uh some poor um Kuwaiti journalist says, Hey, I heard it's fake. Is it fake? And Taker's like, ah, you know, it's uh whatever, gives a very diplomatic answer, and then Vader flips the table and picks the guy up by his tie and spends two weeks, I think, in a Kuwaiti jail because of the extradition loss. Because Vader was an absolute hothead. He had his mask on in the interview, which was hilarious. I love that character, by the way. But apparently, apparently, nobody nobody really liked working with him, but I mean he was really good for some good.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

It's because he was it he had he had the the the stigma of being stiff, like he would actually he was kind of reckless in the Sean match at Summerslam.

SPEAKER_07 41:44

A lot of the big guys were back then, I feel like.

SPEAKER_06 41:46

Yeah, but at the Seth or the SummerSlam match kind of big, but yeah, sorry, go on, Mike.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

In the SummerSlam match, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you can hear Sean say, Are you fucking stupid? Right? Like so he broke it again. Like that's not you're not you're not supposed to do that in the ring. So Brett comes back, has a fire match with Stone Cold Steve Austin at Survivor Series of 1996. This was their first, the most famous one happened at WrestleMania 13. This one was a clinic. Sean losing.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Yeah, that's the uh crimson mass mass, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 42:20

That's that's 13. Survivor series was a technical wrestling. I mean, it was it was unbelievable. Unbelievable. Somehow uh Austin why don't I remember this?

SPEAKER_06 42:30

This Survivor Series that you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

You don't you won't so on this survivor series. Austin lost to Brett, but he looked like a million dollars. The rock debuted as Rocky Maya via.

SPEAKER_07 42:40

This isn't this isn't the oh oh I do remember that. Yes, now I do, and they booed him. I just booed him, they booed the rock for this. Is his debut, they booed him. Yes, I remember.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

He comes out looking like looking like a moron with this little clue of like tassels. Yeah, it was awful.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

I'm caught die, Rocky, die, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Yeah, right. Also, it's the most it's the most visceral crowd in the world, it's Madison Square Garden. Those are the smartest of smart fans.

SPEAKER_07 43:07

It's it's if if you get over Sean's getting booed at at Madison Square Garden, if this guy's getting booed, if this guy's getting cheered, that's what we go with. These this is the crowd, right? Like that's always been his yardstick.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

So the entire 1996 boyhood dream run by Shawn Michaels, Shawn Michaels hated. He was miserable because he was not the clean-cut babyface that they were making him out to be. He wanted to be edgier, but Vince wouldn't let them. So coming into Survivor Series '96, Sean's actually booed. He loses the belt to Psycho Sid. Uh he comes back in January of '97, Royal Rumble, he wins his title back, thus setting up Brett versus Sean, number two at WrestleMania 13. The plan is outlined. Brett's gonna go over. He walks up to Sean, says, I'm really looking forward to working with you. Uh, thank you for doing me the honors. And like, you know, we're gonna keep this thing going. And Sean said, I'm not doing it. You over, right? Yeah. The next week, it was, I think it was February of 1997 at the Lowell Memorial Auditorium. I was there, Lowell, Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

I was I was I'm really glad you brought this up. I'm so I'm so proud of you for this.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

I was there. Shawn Michaels walks out and says, You were there.

SPEAKER_07 44:15

I was, you know, honestly, I I'm I hate to keep interrupting you, but I was thinking about this. I was thinking about this podcast today, and I said, I wonder if Mike is gonna bring up Lowell. And I and I wasn't even in the United States by this point. I was still living in Ireland, which is could explain why I'm a Bret Hart fan, as you said, all the international fans love them. But I was still living in Dublin at the time, and I was thinking, I wonder if Ray and Craig and Mike were in Lowell for that match. I wonder if any of them were there. And it turns out you were there.

SPEAKER_05 44:42

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

I was even with my mom and my dad, and I remember uh Vince calling Sean out, he has the belt, and Sean says that you know, uh that he's lost his smile.

SPEAKER_07 44:51

He lost his smile speech, so famous.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

And he was crying. And I was again, I was I was eight, I was bawling my eye. That's my that is my guy relinquishing the title because he wanted to go home and find his smile. Little did I know that the backstage uh thing was yes, he was hurt. Sean will say that he was he had a very bad knee injury, that he was never cleared to wrestle again. Some of it is true, some of it isn't.

SPEAKER_07 45:14

The real thing though is that he didn't want to do the honors to to Brett, which then set up a taker versus kind of mad you brought this up because this is going to be my big linchpin argument for uh when you eventually brought up that Brett didn't want to relinquish the title back to Sean. And you'll remember he said in the I miss my smile speech that I watched today in prep for this show. He uh I've lost my spile the smile speech. He said in that, and it didn't look like Vince saw this coming at all. And he says he didn't see it coming, and I believe him. One of the very few things that comes out of Vince McMahon's mouth that I do believe. He uh he he lost his smile, all this stuff. He said, I may never wrestle again, like you just said, uh, because he was saying I need a knee replacement. Yeah, but then magically after this, he got a second opinion and he was cleared to fight in four weeks.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Well, yeah, kinda so that was in February. He came back in May, but in four weeks, he did a backflip off the top rope and landed and started dancing around pretty much right in Brett's face. So saying, like, I'm not really hurt, right? Like, I just didn't want to do it. That set up Psycho Sid versus Taker for the belt. Taker wins obviously, but the the real story of this map uh this of this mania was the thing that Brett did to propel Stone Cold Steve Austin to the stratosphere professional wrestling. It was a I quit match refereed by Ken Shamrock, who was the biggest name in the UFC at this point in time.

SPEAKER_07 46:38

They didn't even know what they were gonna do with him. No, you know, they were like, Oh, we we got him signed up. Uh, I mean, I guess make him a ref. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Like, they were trying to legitimize this this match and make it feel as real as possible. And I think it worked.

SPEAKER_07 46:50

And yeah, totally, and the beginning of the kind of, and you know, as as you know, and uh like I'm a big UFC MMA guy, and we haven't had an opportunity to do a ton of UFC preview stuff, but this is the beginning of the of the crossover kind of uh in the in the meta crossover, you know, that the ideological crossover between the UFC and the WWE. And long before you you young kids at home listening, long before Ronda Rousey makes that transition, can Ken Shamrock goes over there and they had just no idea what to do with this guy, and which is what I think you guys were saying, what everybody was saying when Rhonda went over there, which is I I think it's gonna be a Ken Shamrock situation, you know. It's like they're it's a different sport, it's a different set of uh set of skills, and yeah, Ken was a uh square peg and a round hole over there, but um the I I love that he's the referee.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

I think that was the point where John McCain was still calling it like human cockfight and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_07 47:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean the UFC was in its infancy, but it it and you know, you say it legitimizes it. I think it it the the WWE letting a UFC guy in legitimizes the UFC a lot, you know. Um and and helps a lot of fans cross over at this point. And Ken Shamrock being at that match, it's a lucky right place, right time for for him and and for the the whole thing because what an insane finish, you know, that sharpshooter finish. I'll let you keep going on it, but yeah, I just wanted to interject that Ken Shamrock stuff. It's so wild to me when you see his face popping up in the WWF.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

A little backstory to this is that this is still 1997, right? So this is still PGWWF, right? But there's not attitude error. They were they were uh they were told Brett and Steve were told there's no color, meaning no blood. Brett said this match needs blood. Steve didn't want Austin did not want to do it himself. So what Brett did, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 48:33

Austin wouldn't wouldn't jig himself, right? Like he wouldn't blame.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Not at this point. He he was he did he was pretty uncomfortable with it, right?

SPEAKER_07 48:40

And they and the the WWF claims that they they were in business for themselves that night on this on this blood, right? Yeah, but it does that doesn't make sense to me because if the plot was that he was supposed to pass out from blood loss, that wasn't that wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Was it no, he was supposed to he he was supposed to never give up, like and not tap out to make him look like a badass. But what happened was uh Brett said like this match needs color, and there are there are numerous reports. I don't know which one's true, that he either hid a razor blade in his gums, in his uh in his wrist tape, or in his in or in his boots, and he knew the perfect moment to do it, and that gave us probably the most iconic moment in wrestling history is when Austin puts both hands down, reaches up, and the blood just drips down his face, and then he's out cold, and Bret Hart is deemed the winner. So, what do you take? I mean, Brett Ray, DK, like what are your takeaways from this match?

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Even though it says it on WrestleMania 14, like, oh, like it's it's the Austin era, Stone Cold, Stone Cold. It wasn't really 14, it really was 13 that really dawned the Austin era. And you know, like I said, we we could thank, you know, we could thank Bret Hart because you know, obviously, you know, with Stone Cold, you know, his iconic moment really was the year before the King of the Ring, you know, when you know he he but he uh goes over against Jake Roberts and then he comes up there with Michael Hayes from the Fabulous Freebirds. He's like, oh, he's like, you know, talk about your songs and you thump your Bibles, you know, you and you say your prayers and whatever, but Austin 316 says I just whipped your ass. And you know, it just kind of just goes, you know, that kind of catapults him from there. Um thank god he got rid of that theme, that theme music, my God. But that's all awful. No, that I mean that that match with uh with Bret Hart, it it just shows that Bret Hart really was intelligent about the business. Um, I know we kind of talked about before getting on here about not having the business savvy um aspect of it all the way down, but just from the wrestling IQ, so to speak, I'm not sure more people had more of a wrestling IQ than Bret Hart. Uh, to know that that match needed blood, to know that Austin was a good worker and know that Asta could be someone that drew money. Now, I don't know if he envisioned if Austin would be what he became later on that year, and then what he became in '98 and and and uh so on and so forth. But to have that to have that foresight to say, you know what, I can work with this guy. This guy's a hell of a worker. Um, let's do it like this was phenomenal thinking on Brett Hart's part. And you know, as a wrestler fan, I say thank you because it catapulted us into one of the greatest errors, if not the greatest error, uh in in wrestling history.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

And like what I'll say, uh DK, before you you give your thoughts on this match, because we we do want to get to the screw job here, um, is Austin never beat Brett. But that doesn't matter. Brett made Austin look like a million bucks both times different ways. The loser of that match is the most notable uh takeaway from that match. That's what you remember. You don't remember Brett winning from the sharpshooter. You remember Austin struggling to fight out of it with the blood dripping down his face. That's how good Brett was.

SPEAKER_07 51:45

Yeah, it was a great handoff. You know, it was it was an honorable thing for for Brett to do to elevate him to that point. It's the best double turn in the history of the WWF.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 51:54

It's um it's launches Stone Cold Steve Austin. Without this match and without Bret Hart's know-how and elbow grease and uh ability to to fight a fight, to wrestle a match that is not in his wheelhouse, you would think on paper. This is the kind of this is not the kind of match you would put Bret Hart in, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the uh by looking at the at the tape. He go goes in there and puts on such a display, such a selfless display for Stone Cold Steve Austin, and creates this iconic moment, just completely takes himself out of it. Like a lot of the criticism that you'll that we'll get into about the screw job, and I know we have to get there soon, um, is a lot of the criticism from the anti-Brethart camp is about his ego. You know, Brett thought he was bigger than this, so you know, Shawn Michaels is is on record saying Bret Hart thought he was too big for the for the company, all this stuff. That is not a guy to me with an ego. You know, Bret Hart went in there and elevated Stone called C. Austin, because as you said, he saw something in him. Um, he he knew he was good for the company, and he knew the kind of uh profile and and storytelling.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Inversely, I would say that he never put him over. So Brett was a mark for Brett.

SPEAKER_07 53:03

Brett, but but but I think that I yeah, I think that's a good point. But I think and like you know, he he did end up winning the winning the match, but I think he was as you guys both just said, he knew what he was doing, he knew that he was elevating Stone Cold that night. And and I think that I think that that's important. And it, you know, it's one of the it's one of the bloodiest matches of all time, which is not something you really think of immediately, Bret Hart uh uh in bloody matches. You know, I mean prior, you think Rick Flair, you know, like was one of the and like Bret Hart's been on record criticizing the uh Ric Flair's overblading on on what is he what is it what did it was was it that he said he said uh he's he's unsubtle with his with Rick Rick Flair's unsubtle with his blading, you know, and and he is he is. I mean, let's be honest, but and it's one of the most subtle blades ever. Um, and you know, I know you're not supposed to say blading, I and I know that there's all this, you know, and and it's a cliche to say all this stuff about about what Brett did, but you know, uh signature four-figure leg lock in in that in that match from Brett. Like he does all the stuff that you expect Brett Hart to do, but it's a Stone Cold match. That's a Stone Cold Steve Austin match, and it's and it's it's it's yeah, sure, it's in both of their top five of all time, but it's it's more prominent in a Hall of Fame match for Stone Cold.

Wins Losses And Creative Control

SPEAKER_03 54:17

I will say though, the the the the knock on Brett from me and from a lot of people that are in the Sean camp is that Brett thought wins and losses mattered in wrestling. They don't, they don't. It is a it is a work.

SPEAKER_07 54:30

But you're saying, okay, now we're gonna argue. So thank you. You're saying you're saying that Brett thought that wins and losses mattered in wrestling and they don't and I agree that they don't matter. I do agree that they don't matter. But your your evidence to that is that he wouldn't uh put Sean over. And the reason he wouldn't put Sean over is because Sean said he wouldn't put him over first.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Or Austin.

SPEAKER_07 54:53

Well, but that's a dip where we just talked about how good it was.

SPEAKER_03 54:57

Well, but he but he didn't do it. And I mean his his most notable WrestleMania loss was to his brother and it was a roll-up. His most notable SummerSlam loss was to his brother-in-law, and it was a roll-up.

SPEAKER_07 55:08

In in the first in the first five years of Brett's career, Brett was bordering on being uh a guy known for putting people over. And if you if you're early in your if you're you're a tag team, that's what you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

Like there's wins and losses actually don't matter.

SPEAKER_07 55:23

Okay, fine. But what if let me just sit up in my chair here because now we're doing this. We're having a nice chat. Now we're doing this. Um wait, if you're early in your wrestling career, you don't want to get that reputation. Uh, if you go on a solo run, especially, you don't want to get that reputation as somebody puts puts people over too much. Brett did that a lot early in his career, even even during his solo runs. Okay, he gave up the belt a few times, he put people over, he did everything he was supposed to do. He's an undeniably good company man. When he even when he doesn't put Stone Cold over, as we just talked about at length, he elevates Stone Cold, he offers to put Shawn Michaels over and says, I'll do it, whatever needs to be done. And he he walks up to him in the locker room, he says, I'll do whatever needs to be done. Like, just so you know, I'm a professional, you can count on me. This is verified from both guys. And Shawn Michaels says, That's great, I appreciate it. But just so you know, I'm not gonna do the same for you. And that's what leads Brett to say, uh, okay, well, then I'm never gonna put him over. You know, I'm I'm just not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

But also at that time, neither of them had creative control. So, like they can say whatever they want. The man, the man writing the script was not in the room, sure.

SPEAKER_07 56:31

But at the end of Brett's career, he had creative control, which leads to a reasonable, as they always say, reasonable creative control at the end of his career in the in the WWE, before he goes to the before he goes to the Turner, you know, that the the WCW promotion that shall not be named. Um, you know, and he's and he's a good, you know, and I think he knew too. And and I will say this, if you're gonna criticize Brett, you know, he didn't fit in at the WCW at all. You know, he didn't work at all, and they didn't use him right.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

And said, uh not to cut you off, WCW does not know what to do with Brett the Hitman Heart.

SPEAKER_07 57:02

No, they absolutely don't. They didn't know what to do with the character. Yeah, he was totally right. And but he also was a loyal guy, he wanted to stick around in the WWF. And and and the the picture that Vince McMahon painted him, and I'll get I'll get back to the other thing in a second. The picture that Vince McMahon painted him was was would have been undeniably uh uh what's the word I'm looking for? Like, just you would have been greedy for that. Any any career would have been greedy for that. Like, I'm gonna be the babe Ruth of this organization. Like he Vince painted that picture, he didn't ask him to, but to get back to your point, not putting people over, he's a second generation.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

No, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't say not putting people over. I said because he made people bigger stars, but but he never but he never lost to them. You know what I mean? Like that's genius. When he was a man of well, that's that's that's a good thing for a heel. Like Rick Flair made baby faces, but never lost to them as a child.

SPEAKER_07 57:54

Well, they made him be they made him be a heel at the end, it ruined him.

SPEAKER_03 57:57

Except in Canada.

SPEAKER_07 57:58

I mean, he was I mean he can't be a heel, he can't be a heel in Canada. Well, the reason they made him a heel, as we all know. I mean, this is we're beating a dead horse here, but the reason they made that he became a heel is because he turned around to the entire American audience and said, You guys suck. Yep. But you know, and he's never he's never coming back from that.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

But that would have been that conventional wisdom would dictate that a that a baby face doesn't make the heel look better by beating them. The heel makes the baby face look better by beating them.

SPEAKER_07 58:22

A great baby face it makes a great uh makes a great heel, and a great heel makes a great baby face. One needs the other, one hand washes the other. We all know this. The point is Brett knew he was never gonna be a good heel. And he tried.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

He tried to say it was a fantastic heel.

SPEAKER_07 58:37

I I mean he was you think Brett was a good heel?

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Yeah, I think I so I think Brett was mediocre at best on the microphone before 1997. But when they took off the handcuffs and they could and they brought back like the heart foundation, it was like, you know what, you know, America like is so far below Canada, I'm not even gonna waste my like that. That's what you're supposed to do. People were paying to see him get his ass kicked, and it didn't happen.

SPEAKER_07 59:03

That's when I I don't remember it like that at all. I mean, I I feel like he I feel like that was completely anti. I mean, it might be because I'm a Brad Hart Homer, but it might be, but I think that was completely antithetical to his to his message, to the kind of guy he was. It didn't make it, it didn't feel authentic to me. It didn't match up with the criticisms he had of Shawn Michaels in the first place, like his legitimate criticisms, not his works, when he was saying, you know, he's doing vulgar stuff in the ring, and and you know, why are they cheering for heels now? Like wrestling's changing, like all these comments he was making.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

Why you when you think about it, it was perfect because Brett's character didn't change. He painted the picture on the microphone that they abandoned him, and all he ever did was was Brett's character didn't change though.

SPEAKER_07 59:47

Brett's character didn't change, but his character got sold out. You know, the hit the hitman heart got sold out by by Vince McMahon because I think it's one of the only times I don't know what to do with you. It was lazy, you know. I don't know what to do with you. I guess we'll turn you heel.

SPEAKER_03 59:58

I think it was I I think it's one of the only times in the wrestling business where a babyface turns heel without doing anything drastically different. And and it and it and it did work because he was going against Austin from uh from pretty much March or April until July, can uh uh which was the Canadian Stampede Pay-Perview, which was in obviously Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:19

Okay, do the do the do the screw job, and then we'll get into this because we gotta we have to frame it with the screw job backstory. So do the screw job. When you say the screw job, should we just get to it? Yeah, we should just get to it because now we're now we're talking about what like what what happened.

Vince Panics About Losing The Belt

SPEAKER_07 1:00:34

Because we can we can go. I I want to go back and reference this stuff in my arguments for the for the screw job. So uh let's just frame it, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

Okay, well now without further ado, let's just get to the Montreal screw job. So the summer of 97 was filled with uh with uh awful, awful, awful promos by both Brett and Sean to each other that they both said that they would never do. They both did it. There was backstage fights that happened, which brings us to, I believe it was September of 1997, where Vince McMahon tells Brett, hey, listen, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to pay you what I told you I was gonna be able to pay you because we're going to go bankrupt. Turner is kicking our ass in April or no, sorry, in September of 1996, it started an 82-week string of consecutive ratings, uh, defeats by WCW Money Night Show to WWF Raw.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:29

And this was a lie. Just you know, I mean, we we we know this now, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

Well, hold on.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

No, no, no, it wasn't a lie, it wasn't then.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:36

WCW was really killing them, and like they were losing in the ratings, but but it the reason that Vince McMahon wanted to get rid of Bret Hart's contract, you guys know this. I can see it in your faces. No, no, no. The reason he wanted to get it rid of his contract is because he was planning on going public with the WWF at the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

No, that didn't that didn't happen for another two years.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:54

For another two years, but he was but they told him that he should get rid of all his long-term obligations in order to go public to make him more appetizing to investors.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

But in 1997, uh uh WW WWF was not was not profitable.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:07

It was nine in 1998, is when they went public, right? So they went public a year later. Was it 99? So two years later they they they went public, right? He's saying we don't have the money to to back you. I don't buy that. I just do not buy that from Vince McMahon.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

Well, when you think about well, hold on, but in 1997, WWE turned up uh generated, I think it was like 134 million dollars in revenue. They had a hundred and like uh they had 120 million dollars in in pay. So they did not make any money, they made like 14 million dollars as a company in 1998, 1999, they made 530 million dollars. Yeah, their revenue was down, but that doesn't mean that they were in they weren't in the red. Well, it was a fail well, they didn't have any stakeholders, it was just Vince. He did not, there was no it that was a family-run company at that point in time.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:49

But but he knew that that is he knew his plan was to first of all, I think he was mad that he got backed into a corner by Brett with the with the WCW contract. So it was a matter of principle.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

That he helped negotiate, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:01

But second of all, nobody nobody put a gun to Vince McMahon's head to to go and uh offer him that ludicrous contract. That that contract would be ludicrous now. That contract could be ludicrous in any sport. 20 years, created creative control, uh uh like lower workload, that was part of it, right? Like uh 190 days or something, yeah, 185 days or whatever it was. Um, he gave he gave he gave him the whole farm, you know, and he was mad about it, you know. And that's not that's not Brett's fault. Like that's he couldn't honor his contract. I don't get like if that's now this is 1997, right? If that's now in any sport in in in WWF, whatever, in the Twitter era, every single person is going on Twitter going, sorry, Vince, you know, don't give a shit. You're the one who signed you any and he went out of his way to give Brett that contract.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

I I think that's because you know, I think that that contract was a byproduct of Vince being screwed by mate by the talent that he created in WWF before.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:57

Well, he didn't want to lose another star.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:58

Right. He so he wanted to lock it up. But but you do need to realize 1997, 95, 96, 97 were some of the worst years in the WWF's history. Um, ratings were down, uh live attendance was down, everything was down. It doesn't go, it doesn't really get better until after the screwdriver. But before we get to that, uh Vince says, I can't pay you what what I want. I think I'm I think I'm gonna have to breach the contract. He helps Brett with uh with conversations with Eric Bischoff and WCW secure a three-year deal for nine million dollars. The last part of Brett's agreement with WWE in his last 30 days is that he has creative control, meaning he does not have to do what he does not have the what does not want to have to do.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:44

Oh, you left one thing out, by the way. When he offered Brett that 20-year contract, he said, and I quote, I'll never give you a reason to ever want to leave. Yep, right? I just want that on record. He said that right to Brett, you know, and Brett Hart, up until this point, has not done anything shady, he's not gone against his word, he's he's he's been a complete straight shooter, he's been loyal to the company. Just want that established up until never hurt anyone in the ring.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:10

He's the only wrestler that I know of that has ever caused an injury.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:14

Technically perfect. He's he's been a good company man. The only criticism you could maybe level at him is that he hasn't, you know, he the win lost thing. Ray, do you agree? No, there's no blemish on his record, he's a mark for himself.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's definitely a big fan of himself. Like he's what's sure.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:29

But there's no real blemish on his record from a business perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Like, yeah, no, no, business-wise, no. Um, I mean, like we already talked about. I mean, his mic skills were below average, but other than that, no. But from a from a technical standpoint, everything else, no, he was his mic skills.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:42

Might have been below average, but his showmanship was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Yeah, I mean, like, but like you said, Dave, like until until he got pissed off, and like I said, we you know, they took off the handcuffs, like you know, like I said, that that promo that he cut when he was like, Everyone's turning a blind eye, venture turning a blind eye, like.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:00

that that was great because they let him be him and like I said he was pissed off because of what yeah he felt it he meant it that's not why I loved Brett though for me no right right but I'm i'm saying but i i'm saying like part of the part of the character and this is with any wrestler like part of the character is how you deliver things on the mic right so totally yeah it's only you can only go so far with your wrestling ability right and i'm i can argue there's no one that's gotten more out of his wrestling ability than brett hard right but you you you have you have to have both because you have to have something that and he was a lot better in promos when he had the sunglasses and the belt and the jacket and he could be a little bit quieter and that was kind of his image and when he had to do it in the ring I do agree that he you know without anything any of that stuff on and that is where it counts obviously like anybody can cut a promo you get 20 takes on it but when he had to do it live I do agree that yes he he was subpar for sure I think Brett always fell into the category of he was not someone who could talk you into the building but if you were talked into the building you saw him wrestle you'd come back again to see him wrestle well he wasn't the advertisement he was the product yeah yeah but Sean could talk you in and and he was the yeah I agree I agree and he was he was and he was a great worker so the stage has been set uh Brett has creative control the the the event is survivor series it's gonna be in Montreal Quebec Canada um it the the world wrestling we're here we're here the world wrestling federation championship match will be between Shawn Michaels and Brett Hart 18 months in the making i mean this story they literally didn't have to do any promos before it they did but they shouldn't have because the story told itself right we all wanted to see this match um and leading up to it Vince said to Brett we're gonna have Sean go over and Brett said no that's not I'm I'm I'm not going to lose to Sean and first of all I'm not gonna lose to Sean number one number two I don't want to drop the belt I don't think that was number one I I I hate to quibble with you but number one was I don't want to lose in Canada. Which again it's a it's a it's a scripted uh sports entertainment product so like again he cares about the wrong things when it's when it's when it's him he's a mark for himself number one so I don't want to lose in Canada uh I don't want to lose to Sean Vince said okay well what if we get the belt off you before he said no because I've been advertised as the champion again as the champion in the pay-per-view which is fair so so basically Vince gives all these different options to Brett and to Sean none of them are being easy none of them are are agreeing with each other and ultimately uh Brett suggested well why don't we just do like a schmozz finish uh uh and like we'll I'll drop the belt or I'll just walk into raw in Ottawa the next day and give you the belt no no no it wasn't in Ottawa it was the it was no it was the next Monday night Raw in the US that he said he would drop the belt it was the following week and that that he would say he said it was the it was it was the next yeah it was the next Monday night Raw and it was I think in in Madison Square Garden and Vince didn't want to pay the 40 grand to tape it or whatever it was not the raw after survivor series but the raw after the raw after survivor series I think so I I could be wrong about this and then like you know we agreed beforehand not to not to sit here like and Google stuff but like I think I think it was he agreed to do it because he was now you might be right that he was making that up and he just didn't want to lose it to Sean but I think he said I'll do it in uh I'll do it in the net at the next American date not to Sean though uh no it was like to the what was that guy's name the Bronx bomber the the Brooklyn brawler what was that no no no no no no no he was kidding okay so I know what you're talking about he said he would much rather lose uh to the Brooklyn brawler and in Madison's right but it was his it was yeah but he said he'd go in and drop the belt on that night just like Sean had done with his fake knee injury just so you know uh the Brooklyn brawler was a mid-card or not right a mid yeah exactly yeah yeah he was right you're right but but he did say that he would go in and drop it the same way Sean dropped it with his fake semi fake knee injury right and but the problem is here Sean wasn't leaving for the competitor Brett was he was didn't want to leave for the competitor he tried everything to not leave for the competitor but he was he was and we he was leaving and as we did touch upon a a couple you know minutes ago the WWF at that time had already seen their champion of a division walk over to WCW and drop a belt in the trash i first of all let let me let me just tell you this I don't think Brett would have done it I don't think Brett would have done it he absolutely wouldn't have he absolutely wouldn't have and I'll tell you something else the WCW was in no position to do that again they were in them they were balls deep in litigation over the characters that you had already just mentioned uh uh the uh diesel yeah diesel and razor that had left um that with the the wf was suing them over over stealing those likenesses the WWF lost that lawsuit by the way does it but at the time they're they're knee deep in this stuff and it and it's they're like he the what was the guy's name that Brent did all the deals with that um I never did any of the WW WCW I never watched any of it what was the the head of the Eric Bischoff was saying he absolutely wouldn't have done that again he was in no legal position to do that that was Vince's paranoia because Vince thinks that everyone else is as much of a piece of shit as Vince is well a couple things uh when Eric Bischoff came over to came over to WWE he did an interview and said I understand why Vince would think that I can tell you it never crossed my mind I don't know if you believe me. Yeah he understands why Vince would think that because he understands how Vince thinks and Vince is paranoid that everyone sucks as much as Vince does no finish here in this match right so there's a meeting at a hotel room with Vince McMahon wait we left out by the way uh just in a quick interesting aside when uh Bret Hart legitimately beat the shit out of Shawn Michaels the the match I mean or before the match when he when he it's been heavily disputed. It's well I mean I think I think the case was that everybody was pretty aware that if any if they really did ever fight Brett would take it that that Brett would win and um and he went but anyway the the the famous the thing that nobody disputes um I mean Jim Cornette you know who we all love I I would hope right Jim Cornette is I hate him but he's I mean hate love hate right love hate but I mean he's you've laughed at things he said so oh yeah um in a lot of memes in a lot of memes famously says says uh I mean I'm paraphrasing here but par famously said like Brett came back and beat the brakes off him uh Shawn Michaels couldn't whip cream in a dairy factory and and but it but they all but but famously uh hair got pulled out Shawn Michaels lost a clump of hair and uh Orton has the hair I hear um like still has the hair from that night yeah that's what I that's the rumor on the street that'd be hysterical yeah but there weren't that many people there but then uh Shawn Michaels famously went into Vince's office and you know complained about a safe work environment you got a crazy guy working here whatever so I just wanted to say that in in lead up it's the the situation is not sports entertainment tense this the situation is life tense

Inside The Montreal Screwjob Plan

SPEAKER_07 1:13:07

at this point.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Yeah like they went through a wall fighting each other like yes okay cool go so this is all the animosity is real there there you know there was I I thought you know we could touch on this but I'll just say like there were references made by Bret Hart to the way that Sean conducted himself in the ring that he that he appeared to be stripping with and bringing little boys into the ring to pose with him. Sean then in the next week on Ross uh made kind of outed him having an affair with sunny days made the sunny days comment which for all that you for those of you that don't know sunny was a uh was a valet in wwf at the time she made her she made her way around the locker room it is uh there's no short stories she was actually involved with sean mucha's at the time so uh sean made the made the comment just really to piss Brett off cause tension and it worked because he went home and his wife was like WTF mate yeah right so now it's night it's the night before okay and we're gonna try and go through this as fast as possible it's uh it's uh Vince Sean Triple H and Gerald Briscoe in a room talking about how this match is gonna go and Vince literally says you know I don't I like I don't know what's gonna happen like we we we just I can't let him leave with the belt and Sean famously said like what are we talking about here and Triple H said and I quote fuck him if he won't do business do business for him that's a funny thing to hear from from Mr Curtin call by the way I just just to just to pop out here.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:44

I mean to to to have triple h do do what I what I think uh is one of the worst displays of uh professionalism in the history of sports entertainment um coming out with that curtain called bullshit he was still getting punished at the time for this by the way he was being buried yeah um and the only reason that he got back in we all know this I mean this we're getting into high school gossip here but the only reason he got back into Vince's good grace is because he's married his damn daughter that was in 2003 yeah but I mean they were they were already having an affair by this point I think that was in 1999. Okay well maybe they texted I don't know but I don't even think texting was a thing yet he was he was they they were paging each other he was still he was still having a few nights in China at this point RIP like he was yes yes okay anyway back to the back to the back to reality whoops there goes gravity here's the thing triple H shouldn't have had a voice in that room okay so it maybe vo maybe and I don't even really think you should have a voice in rooms right now but the uh are you a triple H guy Mike yeah I mean you both are cheese he's single I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna hot room right here he single handedly rebuilt uh their entire developmental division and made it into a a brand that actually draws money when it tours I mean eventually eventually once he was given like his third and fourth chances so um when he was champion he was terrible when from 2003 to uh 2002 2006 it was called the uh uh oh god it was it was the the the reign of terror and it was bad yeah and and the and the curtain call you know and I know that wasn't his fault and that was that was Sean's fault and triple h ate the shit for it yeah and he's the one that got punished because Sean was the champion he wasn't gonna get punished uh the guys that were on their way out couldn't get punished so you know triple h ate the shit for it but he went around and uh did a bunch of disingenuous apologies about it and whatever I like I just I wouldn't I wouldn't co-sign a mortgage with triple h that's all I'm saying I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him which is not very far so uh triple h planted the bug is what you're saying he planted the bug in Vince McMahon's head about maybe we screw him over so at this point in time like that was the call was okay we'll do it but we just don't know when um so what so now now Shawn Michaels is put into the the uh I would say the worst possible place to be in Montreal Quebec Canada with in a in the ring with a guy who can clearly beat you up I mean Sean oh yeah they're worried he was gonna actually get his ass kicked that night yeah uh so Gerald Briscoe who's uh you know an old school wrestling wrestler and promoter and helper with the WWF at the time was was showing Sean moves about how to shoot wrestle just in case he was put into a spot where he couldn't get out so Sean has famously said like it's one thing to be the person that says this is going to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:33

It's a whole nother thing to be the guy that has to go out there and do it. Right? And so before the match Brett and Sean meet and Brett actually said you know I I I I really hope that you know this is a great match I do want to say like I above all else I really enjoy working with you.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:50

I'm sorry that it got as bad as it did and they actually had a great conversation and they they actually patched it up which is why the famous footage in wrestling with shadows Brett's like come on man you know and Sean's like absolutely not which we now know is a lie but he's like absolutely not Brett's like I don't believe you but like whatever you know we had this talk beforehand whatever I'm gonna go take a shower but yeah that's I mean it's nice and that could have been the moment that they finally patched it up if it wasn't for Vince McMahon but whatever they had this come to Jesus moment and then they went over the match and they they said okay well you know about 13 minutes into the match what's gonna happen is Sean's gonna lock me up into the into the sharpshooter the referee's gonna take a bump dx is going to run down then the heart foundation is going to run down it's gonna be a double DQ that was the time in Sean's head where he said that's where we do it that's where we have the the turn happen that's where we have the bell ring he went nobody knew nobody knew what was going to happen you know like the the guys in the gorilla position didn't know you know uh the guys who were supposed to be doing the queue if for those at home uh the guys sitting behind the curtain uh cueing the the surprise wrestlers to come into the gorilla position that those guys didn't know the truck didn't know or I think maybe one guy in the truck maybe knew kevin kevin dunnew kevin yeah yeah kevin he knew he's like this by the way he's the worst possible human being in the in the history of the wrestling business but that's a whole other podcast okay so uh earl hebner is a referee earl hebner is probably the most famous ref referee in wwf history or wrestling history because of this um and he's pulled uh he's pulled aside by I believe it was Vince or someone in gorilla saying uh when Sean locks it in call for the bell so that's it Brett had gone to him prior yeah so Brett goes to you not gonna screw me right like we're good I swear I wouldn't do it uh I love you but I wouldn't do it buddy I promise I wouldn't do it I'm not gonna do it then you come out there and he you know he hops out the and I mean and and listen I I have to give him my take on this and we we took we talked about this beforehand and um and like I said we talked about how Scott Hell Scott Hall felt some others have felt um I just I still can't for the life of me understand how do you let him put him in your own finishing move Brett how do you let that happen don't you can't let that happen not in your hometown not when you they know you're on the way out like don't come on man I have two I have two arguments for this and I and I think it's the linchpin of my argument for because what you're saying is what everyone's been saying to Brett for the last 30 years. How could you not have known how could you not have known what they were going to do this is why people think it was a it was a work especially if you suspected it. Yeah if you suspected it if you did because he did suspect it because he put a wire on himself and went in to talk to Vince beforehand to get to get it all on tape. He uh if he if he thought it was a work or the people that think it was a work think it has to be a work for that reason because Brett had to have known he's not an idiot he's a little bit of an idiot about some stuff but he's not an idiot about this stuff right like he had to know two reasons I'll tell you the two reasons number one the uh and this is like not from the internet this is a genuine DK Sizzle hot take uh not the first one but the second one the first one is he was boys with the ref and the ref said no he swore in his kids he swore in his kids that he would that he was not gonna uh call the fight against Brett and Brett the the running theme of this is that Brett takes people at their word and he shouldn't uh number two and this is the most important one and this is the thing I've noticed in all my research on the on this on the Montreal screw job today the sharpshooter is not a pin it's a submission you have to tap to the sharpshooter you have to go I'm done I am in pain so there's no worry in Brett's head that he's gonna it it's up to him to lose to the sharpshooter yeah a couple of things played into into Brett's favor right like yeah get me in the sharpshooter all you want I'm not gonna sit on and and I'll say this and this is the most annoying part about the Montreal screw job Shawn Michaels fucks up the sharpshooter doesn't even do it right Brett had to correct him and Brett corrects him in the move yep and as he's doing a nice thing correcting him ding ding ding you know and it so Brett was all into a fight up it's not even a real screw job he didn't give up he they rang the bell that's why the referee said yeah but it's not even a real he didn't even really win the match I've never heard anyone say this it's not a pin his shoulders aren't on the ground right for three seconds he didn't give up the record books will will look and say that Brett gave up he didn't though he didn't sean Michaels won the belt via uh at the at the end of the day Brett screwed Brett no no um how are you gonna let him you asked the question how are you gonna let him how you and I mean listen that was a great line and and it was and it was a genius piece of PR there's no beating Vince McMahon of public relations okay and Brent should have known Bret Hart should have known that but Bret Hart felt comfortable getting into his own submission because it wasn't a pin because he knew he was going to tap and he knew that the referee that the referee couldn't fast count it right he was sold into a false sense of security for two different reasons.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

One Pat Patterson helped him put the match together and he and Pat he asked Pat Pat said no because they and and they consciously did not tell Patterson what was going to happen by the way rest in peace of the first ever interconstitutional champion Pat Patterson but he was uh he was a Brett guy so they didn't tell him on purpose and Earl Hedner was a Brett guy and they they told him right before he ran out to the ring they basically threatened his job right so if you don't do this you're out no they did they said they're gonna fire him if he didn't do it yeah so by the way like what I what gets lost uh in this entire discussion is that this match was really good it was it was actually uh it it was the re event the screw job match it was yeah it was that yeah but the 12 minutes that I mean it was a real fight like you if you if you talk about like the angst and the tension that they built in WrestleMania 12 go back and watch this one because it was legit this looked like it felt like a big fight it looked like a real fight don't watch the end you already know what happened and and even even in like once again I'm I'm big I'm big of crowd reaction right I'm not sure because I mean I've been I mean I've been to a couple of wrestle manyas I've been to some other uh pay-per-views I'm not sure there's ever been more animosity in one building than that night like it didn't matter it yeah ever like I didn't it didn't matter what the match was in the no they knew what they knew what had happened there was a there was a section well many they they wanted they wanted Sean to get his ass beat though I thought they were gonna beat Sean's ass I mean he i mean he might he wiped his ass with the yeah yeah which i'm i'm surprised no one brought that up so now i'm i i mean when i when i watched but i'm like yo like a beautiful heel move by the way yeah oh yeah phenomenal but it was i'm like wow i'm i'm like you wiped the can the the canadian one i said i i said in between your legs and i'm like wow and he's going he's sneezing on it and i'm i'm just like wow like i mean i i thought i thought i thought the un america run in oh two was crazy with lynch storm and christian uh but i mean oh my god that that was that was that compares that doesn't pale comparison to what sean michaels did that night coming out to the ring and i mean if the crowd could have literally jumped over the gate and just held him in between the rings and just let brett just deal on him then they they would have because there was not a person in that building looking for Shawn Michaels to be victorious that night at all like it's it it's unbelievable and I missed those type of crowds in wrestling like we'll never get that back and if anything that's more criminal than the actual screw job because when those crowds are on fire like that there's nothing like it man dam i just like a crowd at this point forget a kind of crowd just a crowd would be great so I mean what what I guess everyone knows what happened at the end like uh Vince says ring the fucking bell right Erl Hemer rings it they all there was some sort of there was some sort of uh and that this is just popped into from my subconscious there was some sort of reason Vince was standing next to the ring that he made up right or am I just making that up like why was Vince right next to the ring when it was unusual so yeah so so this will this yeah so right so I think this is where this is where I think if you're Brett you have to know some shit's about to go down right why is he down there? So why like why why are you even down there? You're not you're not doing um you're not doing commentary anymore now the first time for the first time you know so now you're you're the you know the Mr. McMahon character starting to kind of come about then really that's where that's where it really began so you think he had this in his head already absolutely absolutely and that that's what I'm saying like I feel like that's why I'm saying like it would like that's why I think it was a work and I'm just like yo like if you're down there he's by the sideline he's not getting to get a ring size seat he he owns the shit he can say whatever he wants to say and you know and we all know Vince's control freak nature he sits in the gorilla and he sits there and he he mans the whole show like that's just that's just what he does. So for him to be down there by ringside he had to know okay this is gonna get ugly um or Hemman knew it was gonna go ugly that's why he he bolts out of the ring and he ran uh out of the building that fast mcfoley was pissed off and you know basically took his bowl away taker taker's the biggest takeaway because in the hallway afterwards this is why I love taker forever and I know we're uh we're all on a we're recording this like what a week after he's kind of officially retired.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:24

I mean but and we're all in an emotional Taker kind of moment but I was doing you know my Montreal screw job uh due diligence today and the moment you hear that Taker's storming down the hallway has very little to do with this whole thing and is storming down the hallway to go find Vince McMahon to go you better go talk to that guy because he's one of the boys you know like Taker's always one of the boys uh and why he's the goat really like you know I mean he's not my favorite of all time but he's number two for sure uh because Brett but yeah I mean everyone respects Taker and then like I say everyone respects his yeah yeah you respect his opinion so um and I mean to be honest

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

He ran that locker room for years. So 100%. Whatever essentially, whatever he said essentially really went. Not Triple H, not Shawn Michaels, not Steve Barson. But people really think that because of you know his family ties, so to speak. So um, but that that wasn't that was not the case. So um there there was so much backlash from from that, and you know, everyone wanted to answer, everyone wanted to know what the hell was going on. Um and you know, but to this is credit, you know, he comes back there, you know, he's like, all right, you know, I'll let him, I'll let him knock me out. And you know, well, I'm well, I mean, well, they're during the shower, during the you know, uh breasts in the shower, and says if you're still here, if you're here, I'm gonna knock him out, you know. And he's like, you know, then you know, he says on that, he's like, I can't believe I'm gonna, you know, hit this man in the face. And you know, he, you know, he knocked knocks him out, and you know, the the rest was history, and then they they may move on from there. But um, I mean, granted, I it it sucks that it even had to happen because I said obviously he should have he should have still been that babe roof, he should have been that guy, he should have been here forever, he should have been in the John Cena category, he should have been in the Steve Boster category, but you know, he ended up going to WCW and it was just like yo, like this is this is awful because he's one of the best that we've ever seen, and it's a sour ending for everybody because of how you're putting you know you're putting this on live TV. So it would, it was, it was just bad all the way around, man.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:29

I'm just curious, I'm just curious about why did Brett screw Brett. I I I just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

I mean, but like I mean it already, like Vince is just a master, you know, public relations person, but they're all and additionally why I can tell you to still say it's a work. There's no way, and like Scott Hall said Scott Scott Hall said this as well. He there's no way Vince at that time, especially when they're losing to WCW, and you see Brett go W C W on his pay-per-view.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:06

On his pay-per-view, like there's no everybody knew everybody knew that he was going to the WCW.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

There's no way that he would allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:12

So he was at that point, he was just trying everything to because he was emotional and he just gotten screwed over.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:17

And he would he was like, I mean, he's I mean he's breaking he's breaking apart the the the TV sets.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:21

I mean, I was I'm that was all like yeah, but and and that was not that wasn't on TV.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:27

Yeah, footage of it though, right? Yeah, but you see, you know, do you spit on uh Vince? Which I mean now see, and now and I'm and listen, uh say what you want about Vince and say what you want about uh how that went down. Um, and we saw this in the 05 Royal Rumble when uh you know he blew his quads running into the ring because he was mad about the finish. Um, if if you were spit on me, so embarrassing.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:52

It's hilarious though. But honestly, I would I would rather die than get some have somebody spit in my face.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:56

Right, but I would have came into the ring at that moment, and I'm sorry at that moment. I'm forget forget that I'm the boss, forget that I'm Mr. McMahon, you know, I'm I'm Victor Katie McMahon, damn it. Well, I'm coming in the ring, and we're just gonna go at it. Like if I lose, I lose. But we're we're we're throwing hands at that moment.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:14

There's nothing you can do at that point, and I will say, what an what an insane uh, you know, at that point you have Bret Hart, you know, uh multi multi-time champion, uh, second generation wrestler. He's got all these accolades. Little did we know, he's one of the most accurate spitters I've ever seen in my entire life. That was like a sniper.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:37

That was a it was a bullseye.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:38

I couldn't believe it, you know, especially when you and you know, we've all we've all been in different athletic situations, and your uh, you know, your saliva is unpredictable when you're trying to spit on the court or or on the field. But damn, dude, that was like a laser beam. You know, he he bought all the upgrades to uh in spitting that night. That was crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:56

So a little a little bit of the aftermath here, because I don't I want to get back to our

Aftermath From WCW To Redemption

SPEAKER_03 1:32:00

last point. Uh Shawn Michaels breaks his back in a casket match a little a little over two months after this match against Undertaker in 1998. Uh, he can only wrestle one more match uh in the next five years. Um uh let's see, Brett Dave Us on WCW Nitro the next night after Survivor Series, but is instantly mishandled. He then sustains a career-ending concussion at the hands of Bill Goldberg in 1999 with an untelegraphed kick to the face.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:27

Mule kick.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:28

Yeah, it was awful. WWF goes on to overtake WCW in the ratings war. After losing for 82 straight weeks, WCW is purchased by WWF in uh in 2001. And uh after he, you know, after Shawn Michaels is is on his way to recovery, he obviously uh for those of you that are listening to this know that he is a born-again Christian. He admits that in May of 2002, on an episode of uh WWE Confidential, that he was in on the screw job, but he was ordered not to disclose that information, and that was the burden that really just kind of keeps him up at night. He then, four months later, goes on to return to WWE after a four-year absence and two back surgeries. He was never medically cleared to return, but wrestled for another eight years. Uh Brett suffers a stroke due to uh due to symptoms of the concussion that he sustained at the hands of uh of Goldberg.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:14

No, no, it was a bike accident.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:16

Hold on. He he fell off his bike. But the doctors did say that that the concussion that he sustained was never uh was was was never treated the way it should have been treated. Oh gotcha. Um he receives a call in the ICU from none other than Vince McMahon saying, like, Brett, you know, you're gonna you're you're gonna come back from this, we're gonna figure this out, everything's gonna be okay. Like you're you just have to get back to being you. And Brett went on to say, I know that you did your research, DK, that that that that call was very inspiring to him.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:49

Yeah, because Brett Hart is the kind of guy uh that wants doesn't want real conflict with the people that he cares about. Yeah, I mean you can frame it that way, but he he made an effort uh multiple times, as we discussed on the show with Shawn Michaels to bury the hatchet, and Sean wouldn't do it because Sean was obsessed with Sean. Um Sean thought he should be number one, and didn't matter in what capacity Brett was there, if Brett was ever there, he couldn't be number one. That was and he wasn't wrong about that. Brett made an effort, even on the night of the screw job, to bury the hatchet with Sean. Brett doesn't like to be in conflict with people, he's not a grudge holder, he's Canadian, for God's sake. He took Vince's apology with character and grace, like I would expect Brett Hart to. And Vince may not may not have said, I'm sorry, but him reaching out was enough for Brett. And and that's that's so for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:52

What does it say to Vince's character that he did reach out to a guy that had not been under contract in five years, and he really didn't have any uh he had no reason to do it?

SPEAKER_07 1:34:58

It's such a strange, he's such a strange guy, man. I mean, he's in in one moment he'll be doing the worst thing you've ever seen, and then in another moment, he's the most charitable dude in the world. I think that he's an enigma. He definitely is an enigma. I think that my best guess, um, and this is pure speculation about Vince McMahon, is that uh he does care about his guys, and he wouldn't be good at his job if he didn't. And he's been put in situations where based on his values and his ethics, he's had to choose the business over the person a few times. Now, I don't think when it comes to the screw job, he did the right thing, but I think in because of everything that made Vince McMahon Vince McMahon up until that point, he did the right thing for for for him, you know, for from his perspective. Um he fell backed into a corner, he was paranoid about the belt going to the WCW, he didn't if somebody had just been able to take him away from the situation and said to him, on what planet his I mean they were all so close to the situation. And looking back, I just wish someone had been able to show Vince on what planet is Bret Hart gonna take your title and bring it to the WCW. He did everything he could to stay here. He said, Vince, give me a reason to stay. Please, please give me a reason to stay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:35

I am forever grateful that it happened because if it does not happen, we don't get the Austin error. I disagree. Don't get the Rocky like I disagree with this.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:45

If because if you look at how Brett, if you look at how Brett's contract was structured, he would have had another we we missed out to me. We missed out on another great match with Stone Cold because their chemistry was off the charts. You know, we missed out we missed out on Stone on Brett, like Mike said, finally putting Stone Cold over.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:04

We missed out on uh I don't know if that ever would have happened, but I think it would have happened.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:08

Uh what what's your opinion on The Rock and and Um and Hulk, Hulk Hogan? What's your opinion on that match?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:15

Uh I think WrestleMania 18. I mean that that I mean to me, well, I'm I mean I'm I'm a little biased. Like I I love The Rock. Um I do too. But once again, uh as a wrestler, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:28

He does he could he's not fit to lay lace Arnold Schwarzenegger's boots when it comes to action stars, but as a wrestler, I love the rock.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:35

But no, I'm I mean WrestleMania 18, and like I said, we'll get into that because I kind of feel like this is gonna be a start of a rivalry podcast, so I'm I'm putting that plug out there. Um that Rock and Hogan at WrestleMania 18 in Toronto, because that was also that was at the Sky Dome. Um that was that was another crowd that was just super white hot. But I mean, I I loved that that match, and you know, it was icon versus icon, and you know, it was super predictable though, right? Because you knew that no, I I mean I didn't I didn't I didn't think because once again we talked about you said that he made a mistake with Hogan before in the in the um in the in the early 90s, like I wouldn't have been shocked if they had put Hogan over, even as a kid, if they had put Hogan over um well either with a rock at the at that time, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:17

Anyway, my my point is my point is is is that is is that if if they do what they were supposed to do with Brett, then then you have a ready-made and installed guy that can do that stuff for the company. That can that as we saw he could do that he did with Stone Cold, elevate these superstars based on his name, be the babe roof of the company. Let him uh let him go and and fulfill the role that he thought he could fulfill. And he doesn't stand in the way of the attitude era then. Because what you're saying is, oh, if we did don't have the screw job, and everyone seems to take this as gospel. If we don't have the screw job, then we don't have the attitude era. Why? Because Mr.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:01

No, it propelled it.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:03

But it doesn't mean that the that we do we already agreed tonight that that the reason that Stone Cold Steve Austin was so elevated was because of Bret Hart.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:10

Yeah, but you don't you don't have the evil Mr. McMahon character without the screwjob.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:14

I don't think that's as important. And I think that and and and you and Ray and even and even and even if even if even Ray admitted that that character was already in Vince's head, so he could have just made the character anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:29

Yeah, but how do you make a character if you like so the reason that the character took off so quickly and the WWE over overcame WCW was because he legitimately had to screw somebody legitimately screwed somebody that's outside of the purview and the and the uh the the ethics and the values of sports entertainment though.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:47

But I'm I'm gonna push back on you, Dave, because I'm I met for you made the statement earlier this show, and uh when it comes out, a hero needs a baby face, and a baby face needs a heel.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:56

In the McMahon being life, not in real life, you don't really have a real life.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:00

Yeah, but it's not real life, it's scripted. It's not it's not it was a real life, but well well, what happened in real life propelled what was being scripted, right? Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly. But I'm saying, like he he becomes he becomes the heel, he becomes the hero, and then you know, everyone he becomes the boss that everyone hates, and people keep watching every week. That's what happened. That's exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:20

I that is what happened, but I think I don't think that that that means that they couldn't have done the attitude era in a similar way with similar characters, with Brett not getting screwed over. I I I think people take it as gospel that it took that screw job to make that happen. I just don't agree with that. All the factors were in place already, so Stone Cold was already there. Who's the face of the attitude era? Stone Cold. Stone Cold, go for it. Who who made Stone Cold as we talked earlier? Brett Hart. You know, we missed out on a great match. We missed out on the rematch of Stone Cold and Brett, man. Where we stone cold.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:54

I would implore you to go back and watch Divirus Series 96. Also, Brett didn't lose.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:58

But what I would say is like we missed out on Brett losing to Stone Cold. That would have been his big loss, that would have been a loss that he could take in his heart. He knows I know it, I know it, I know it.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:06

The attitude error did not need the screwdriver to happen for uh for for the attitude error to take place, but because it happened, it took place sooner. What I'll also say is Brett was not a fan of where wrestling was going, right? So he would have been a staunch uh uh rival to actually the product and where it was going. He did not like the the the creative direction, he didn't like all the the stone.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:29

He loved Stone Cold's character, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:31

So yeah, but he liked it also like he okay. This is another tangent. He he liked Stone Cold, he liked The Rock.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:37

He had pretty good judge of character. Okay, the only two people that matter the Attitude Eris.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:41

I would say the Undertaker and Degeneration X.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:45

But the Undertaker was already the Undertaker, so that's he wouldn't have had an issue with Taker. Taker could have done whatever he wanted.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:49

If Brett doesn't, if if the screwdriver doesn't happen, there is no Austin. I mean Austin and Michaels don't face off at mania. There's no Mike Tyson in it. Mike Tyson isn't a line with DX and then and then and then turns on DX at the end of the match to give Austin the belt. That moment when JR says in Boston, Massachusetts, was not there, but was able to skip school the next day because my boy lost. The minute that Jim Ross says stone cold, stone cold, stone cold. Like that was it. That was it.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:17

And it took shot, but but but the assumption that it would have been worse is is not a correct assumption. I I think that the school No, not that not that worse.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:28

It just wouldn't, I just don't think it may not have been at the height that we would have been different. Yeah, it just would have been different. Doesn't mean it would have been awful, doesn't mean worse. Yeah, no, I know I I agree. I'm just saying I I just feel like that's such a nostalgic moment that it's so hard to say, well, you take that out of there built on the back of an ethical dilemma, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:45

It's built on the back of a of a screw job, you know. Sure, but it was it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:49

And remember, Brest.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:51

No, but he didn't though, and and you didn't you didn't just screw over anybody. You you screwed over a guy who from 1992 was the best company man that you had to offer. He he bailed you out of your Lex Luger.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:05

I will say from 1985 he was the best.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:07

Sure. Great. I mean, he bailed he bailed you out of the steroid scandal, he bailed you out of your Lex Luger bullshit, he bailed you out of your diesel bullshit, he bailed you out of uh uh Shawn Michaels being a being a uh loony on the road a little. He uh he did everything that was ever he was he did everything that was ever asked of him except the last thing, and that's the the brush we choose to paint him with.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:31

Well, well, no, okay. Well that's the brush that we choose to paint him with because he has a history of only of really, really thinking that wins and losses matter when he no his character Brett the Hitman Heart can sustain a loss.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:46

No, it could sustain a loss, but Brett the Hitman Heart losing to it wasn't you're you're making it broad. He Brett the Hitman Heart shouldn't have lost to Shawn Michaels the by by that point. He should have been able to relinquish the belt. He should he he's right when he says I should have been able to relinquish the belt and leave. He deserved that, he earned it.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:06

So um a couple things that just just to tie this up.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:09

Sean Michaels got to do it shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:11

It's it's actually well that's another thing. So it's actually um so after the Brett suffers the stroke, Vince calls him, they do a DVD, they do the Hall of Fame, but Brett Brett is still nowhere to be seen on WWE television. It's actually WrestleMania 25, Shawn Michaels versus The Undertaker, uh, which is regarded as probably the greatest match in WrestleMania history. Brett is on record of saying that he watched that match and he was so proud of Sean and of Undertaker that that made him want to come back to the WWE and fix things.

Assigning Blame And Final Arguments

SPEAKER_03 1:44:47

So that's we fast forward to January 4th, 2010. Brett the Hitman Hard is a special guest host on Monday Night Raw. The first thing he does is call out Shawn Michaels, and they they did not speak to each other backstage, they made it a point to do that. They texted and said, we'll just do it in the ring, and they both buried the hatchet. It was over. So what was a 13-year saga at that point is now a 23-year saga at this point. Looking back on it, I'm gonna say uh to you, I kind of know your answer, uh, DK, so I want to save you for a second. Ray, who was at fault for the screw job?

SPEAKER_01 1:45:22

I I mean, I'm getting back into a corner, but I mean, I I still have to say it was bright, but only only by default, not because it's because he was leaving the company. So because he was leaving, because it was something that already happened, you know, we talked about it. Vince felt that he was backed into a corner. Now, granted, could he have handled things differently? Sure, but just just in that moment, who could it who to me deserves the lion's share because he was on the way out, because he was someone that was a major part of the business, but you know, could it just you know, it was a as they said, the timed honor tradition that when you leave the business, you drop the belt on the way out. No if ands buts about it. That's simple. You know, if you're the low, if you're the company guy, then that's what you do. So I I have to I have to put that on Brett. I hate that it had to happen to such a great guy, but like I said, we got one of the best errors out of that. So thank you, Brett. But I have to put it on the hitman heart. But you're still the best that is, the best that was, the best that ever will be. TK, who who's to blame?

SPEAKER_07 1:46:24

Uh, he's not even the top five of blame. It goes like this Vince is number one, Vince is probably also number two, uh, Triple H is number three. Earl the ref is number four for Lion to Brett. And then Vince again at number five.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:48

So I I guess for you, like where what level of blame do you do you assign to Shawn Michaels in that moment?

SPEAKER_07 1:46:58

There's no there's no world in which I expect Shawn Michaels to react differently when he's presented at that point. So if I know what I know about Shawn Michaels' character, about about who he was as a person in real life, like I that's that's like asking the sun.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:13

At that point.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:14

So, you know, it's it's that is what it is. I'm not I'm not mad at Sean because that you know that that's just hit dog's gonna holler.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:22

So at the end of the day, you give him any any credit for actually going out there and doing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:28

Give who any credit?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:29

Sean, because it when you think about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:31

Why because he should have been afraid for his fucking life.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:33

Yes, yes, he should have been afraid for his life.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:36

But Ray makes a good point, and it's a and it's a poignant point, and it's that you know it's it's tough to speculate what happened uh what would have happened after. It's tough to speculate uh whose fault it was. Vince was backed into a corner. The thing that always sticks out to me is that if Vince had have given Bret Hart the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn't have screwed him over back. So Vince screwed Brett because he thought Brett might screw him, but I'm 100% sure that he wouldn't have. And so are you, Mike. So nobody had to get screwed in that in that game.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:11

I think Vince screwed Brett because he thought WCW would screw him.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:15

Well, I'm really glad you finally said the words Vince screwed Brett.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:18

So I guess that concludes the show because you've admitted that I'm right. Vince is their fault.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:23

I think what happened was Vince screwing Brett. I think Vince, by the way in which he painted himself and Sean and Brett into a corner, literally, he had no other option but to do what he did.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:38

I I would just I would just say, in summation of my point, Vince didn't have to give him the contract that he gave him, which put reasonable creative control into contract.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:45

But I think he did that uh with with good intentions.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:48

Maybe, but he didn't have to. He gave him reasonable creative control, he gave him the contract that he then wanted to get out of, he reneged on the contract, he thought of the idea to screw him, he screwed him, and uh uh and then triple H also. He should also, he should get like the uh you know, the aiding and abetting charge, I think. Um but uh you know he's the idea, man. If it was a good thing and they were gonna make a billion dollars off it, he'd want the he'd want the credit, right? So he should get the blame. He thought of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:21

It was funny enough. Is it was a billion dollar idea that he did become a billionaire?

SPEAKER_05 1:49:26

Yeah,

Sign Off And Next Episode Tease

SPEAKER_05 1:49:27

yeah, yeah. Take the credit, not the blame, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:29

Yeah, so uh obviously, you know, thank you so much, DK, for joining this episode of the fun.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:34

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:35

Yeah, I uh uh Ray Sean, you were you were great as always. Thank you so much for uh to Craig, uh our the best EP in the business. Stay tuned for episode three of Cheap Heat, where we preview the upcoming Royal Rumble. We talk about our bait our best Royal Rumble memories, and we'll go on from there. So for TK Sizzle, Dave Clark, Ray Son Buchanan, Craig Delisandro, I am Michael Marcangelo signing off. This was episode two of Cheap Heat.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:59

Thanks for listening to this episode of Missing the Point. Missing the Point is a one hour weekly podcast recapping the biggest stories in the world of sports with a Nomingo Flavor. The show notes and transcript from today's show can be found in the description box below, as well as on our website, www.mtpshow.com.