July 23, 2021

Milwaukee Bucks are NBA Champions, Jayson Tatum Offseason Criticism

Milwaukee Bucks are NBA Champions, Jayson Tatum Offseason Criticism

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On this episode; we recap the Milwaukee Bucks winning their first NBA championship since 1971.

We'll talk about where Giannis ranks among the NBA's best players and what a championship means for his future

We'll also talk about Chris Paul and what's next in his future after he and the Phoenix Suns once again failed to get a ring.

We'll also discuss Jayson Tatum and the Boston Celtics, and the criticism Tatum has received this offseason, even after establishing himself as one of the top players in the league this past season.

Hosts:  Dave Clark, Bob Kelly, Rayshawn Buchanan
Producer: Craig D'Alessandro

Tweet your questions to @MTPshow with hashtag #askMTP, email us at Craig@MTPshow.com, or leave us a voicemail on our website to be featured on the show!

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Transcript

Craig D'Alessandro  00:00

On this episode of missing the point, we recap the Milwaukee Bucks winning their first NBA championship since 1971. We'll talk about where Giannis Antetokounmpo ranks among the NBA best players and what a championship means for his future loss to talk about Chris Paul on what's next in his future after he in the Phoenix Suns once again failed to get a ring. We'll also discuss Jayson Tatum in the Boston Celtics, and the criticism Tatum has received this offseason, even after establishing himself as one of the top players in the league this past season. This is missing the point, Episode 74. But it's all relative.


Dave Clarke  00:48

Hello, and welcome to missing the points. I'm your host DK sizzle joined by what we affectionately call ourselves the basketball crew. I think I think this might be the first time that it's just been the three of us because usually we have one of our resident hosts, Joe or Mike and but when we started this podcast, everyone had to be locked inside and didn't have any lives. And now, we all have shit to do. So we're trying to make it work. I'm going to be a poor imitation of the Joe and Mike host extraordinaire. And I'm going to try and talk to these two basketball experts about what the hell just went down over the last few weeks. We talk all the time in our little discord chat about this and that, but I don't think we've really had a chance to do a deep dive on the on the six game long finals that just occurred. I know for me personally, I was cheering for the sons. They were a West team. You know, I don't like to see anybody coming out of the East when that isn't the Celtics, I wanted to see Chris Paul win a championship because like that would have been a nice story. And you know, I didn't have that much of a horse in the race. But like I would have liked to see the sons win. Especially because I was kind of cheering for the nets and the Bucs knock them out. So Ray, I'll start with you. Giannis is a champion. Now all everybody's talking, left, right and center about how awesome it is that he's kind of built this team up from the ground up with with guys that were selected 23rd and 35th. And all these different, like low draft picks trust the process, as long as it's not in Philadelphia, what do you think? I mean, other than the hilarious viral videos of him ordering 50 Chicken McNuggets the chick fil a and like, basically just having the absolute time of his life, which is hard to hate, I have to say, what do you think is you know, where does he on his rank for you now in the current in today's current NBA? Is he a top 10? player? Is he a top five players? your top three player? Where is he?


Rayshawn Buchanan  02:32

Yeah, I mean, I think he was already top 10 I mean, when you're a five time All Star, you know, two time MVP, you know, two time Defensive Player of the Year Most Improved Player, you know, you're already top 10. Right. I think we're just reaching to a point that he's going to become the face. He's not there yet. Because as long as the bottoms in the league, he's still going to be the face. But we're working towards a point that you know, Davis started wanting for the game and that's to go global. Right. So the last two Mbps have been Giannis and Luka Dončić So you know whether so Serbia, and that's what we started doing. I'm maybe saying that wrong, but


Dave Clarke  03:00

it's from one of the beers


Rayshawn Buchanan  03:01

yet we I wanted to Yeah, so Baltic countries, one of one of those areas, right? So that's where that's where the game is going to become becoming more global. And yeah, he's definitely into the top five conversation. I was skeptic of him in his playoffs. I know you had your concerns about him as well. I was wrong. But yeah, I mean, we both were a lot of people wrong. I thought his inability to hit free throws wouldn't be the, you know, would be the downfall. Turns out, he said everyone up, myself included. That was just a masterful performance on the line, forget about the rest of that line. But just from that alone from the free throw line was phenomenal. So you know, to answer your question without going to too far, but I've already been talking forever. He's he definitely has gone into my top five for sure. That's awesome.


Dave Clarke  03:43

Yeah, I mean, I agree that those free throws were absolutely abysmal. I really thought they were going to be his undoing, despite the crab not really being able to count to 10 these days when they shout for him, but they're like 12345 it's like okay, guys, relax. You got to do Mississippi. But Bobby, what do you think? Where does he rank for you? Like Where did anything did any did what is he instilled the same spot? Was he raised? Is he a top five player in the NBA for you like he is for Ray?


Rob Kelly  04:06

Yeah, I mean, you gotta raise them. Now. You know, you think about the way the NBA is. And the NBA is most reactionary league I've ever seen where it's like, as soon as something happens, that person is all sudden, top like kawhi, LeBron, and B. All these guys have been said to be the top player in the NBA in the last 12 months. So going by that logic, to me, I think he is the guy right now. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's just the way the NBA works is like whatever happens right now. That's who the face of the league is. And I really do think he Addis and those free throws man, that was the most unbelievable thing to me like this dude. That's the crutch of his game is those free throws. So that's what the goal was get Giannis Antetokounmpo  to the free throw line. I think Paul said it before games five. He's like we need to get you out to the free throw line. We need to get those offense we need to get those rebounds off of his free throws. That was like his big thing that he needs to work on. Little did they know Giannis Antetokounmpo  was going to come up and knocked down was a 16 of 18 from the line that's unbelievable for God is his new job 50% free throw shooter, this would be like Shaq coming up to the lining game six of the finals, and knocking down 95% of his free throws.


Dave Clarke  05:17

I think shacks career free throw shooting might actually be a little higher.


Rob Kelly  05:21

Like, it's just, it's just mind boggling what he did like to step up like that. Drop 50 the way he dropped, it is just unbelievable to me. He's the guy right now he's let's talk about that. Let's


Dave Clarke  05:34

talk about that. 50 point, game six performance, actually, because it feels like we're all kind of chomping at the bit to get to that, because I think the way I was looking at the books, Ron and I still kind of am looking at it this way. And like I'm gonna take this contrary and point a little bit later to like argue through it just for content purposes. But also, I do kind of believe it that game six really was like undeniable, you know, and I think that like, you know, Ray said it almost immediately, like when he hit like 41, or something Ray was like, this is an old timer. And you know, he gets to 50 and you sort of like it's sort of diminished in my head Tell me if you guys agree with this, but it sort of diminished in my head by the fact that like everybody seems to be dropping 40 5060 points these days in today's NBA, but it's a winner you know, it's a win and you win the championship. It's it's championship on the line game to drop 50 in the manner that he did like you said, Bobby, and then to do it, accompanied by his best free throw, shooting performance of all time. I mean, he still has a garbage form because free throw this does take forever, and it's annoying as shit when you're watching like


Rob Kelly  06:31

Jermaine O'Neal. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. But


Dave Clarke  06:33

I mean, there's 16 of them went in. So like, whatever. Just to continue with the theme of ranking stuff like, in the past few years, can


Rob Kelly  06:40

you think of a better championship game from an individual player only won and they lost. And that's LeBron in 2016. Game On to the finals. He put that team on his back. And I've never seen a game like that. Except for another football game, but doesn't matter. So it's Yes, LeBron and Giannis Antetokounmpo . To me, are the top.


Dave Clarke  07:01

Are we saying that he's in the LeBron conversation now? That performance though, so


Rob Kelly  07:05

So what amazes me the most is like, you're right, people do drop 50 on the rag. Now, the thing is, is he did it in an old school way that he just you don't see it anymore. You know what I mean? Like he, like I remember seeing him shoot a three. And I was like, What are you doing? Giannis Antetokounmpo ? Like, you got to get to the whole man. Like they can't stop you at the rim. And that to me was what was so amazing about it is what was he from three like to have something like he didn't have very many threes. Yeah, so like, I just think it's unbelievable to me, the way that he was able to drop 50. Just dominating like, it almost reminded me of like, I came back in the day. That's what that game looked like. That's what he reminded me of is the cane.


Dave Clarke  07:45

He was he was playing on the show, he was playing on the short post like that really well. And they really didn't have anyone that could guard him. And I think they realized that like, I think the bugs realize that in like game three and a half again, like, halfway through season three, they were like, what are we doing? Because the bugs have been so dumb, coaching wise, right? Like they've made some crazy choices during this run. And it's like they've gotten kind of lucky with some of the tactics they've employed. But finally, after everybody was begging him to just play simple play the way that you know how to win, just put Yanis down though you have no there's no answer. There's no answer for him on the sun's Ray, where does that performance rank for you that game seeks performance rank for you in your lifetime?


Rayshawn Buchanan  08:21

Right. So before I set out, I want to add on to what you just said. Right? So like, you're absolutely right. dk like, he realized Yo, they cannot fucking stop me. From 10 feet in like, it's just it's like, yo, it's like, yo, they can't stop me so I'm like, why am I gonna? Why am I gonna build a defense out and shoot for 1518 feet? 20 feet 25 feet? Like save that shit for the all star game? Save it for if you're doing like a horse competition in the offseason, that's fine. But when the games matter, make sure that you do what got you to the dance. And so you're able to give your best when you're best at needed and that's what he did right? So far his performance I mean, this is totally over reactionary but I have to go with his top five likes to end up close again. Once again. We have seen other 4050 point performances like we've seen from joy it was you know, LeBron held Donovan Mitchell lashonda boba had 5700 cake and that's insane but 57 and a loss right but i mean this is up there I mean for a game that you needed it that granted it wasn't it was elimination for Phoenix like granted they you know game seven would have been you know the end all be all for both teams but in a poser game. You know Chris Paul was talking trash about how you know the bobby just alluded to this but saying like oh like you know, he excessively we anticipated Miss he anticipates to miss Well, you know, he clearly heard you and he clearly said okay, my enough's enough. We're not going back to Phoenix unless I'm going on vacation and that's what he that's what he decided to do. But yeah, I got to go with top five is definitely a top five all time especially for for that top five maybe performance in the playoffs, but for actual closeout game. It's got to be top five like that. It was just it was a special from beginning to end. 33 in the second half. Unreal.


Rob Kelly  09:56

Well, I mean, you think about it, so he really So you think about the games that that could compete with that, right? You think about Jordan and 93 against the songs very dropped 55. You think about? LeBron, like I said, 51 game one and 18. And then he honest is has to be right there. Like I honestly can't think of very many performances that could top it maybe carry a couple of times in 2019, I think in a couple good ones. But like, it really is one of those performances, like when you are watching it, that you knew it was a historic performance. It's like you were watching history being made. And this is what everyone thinks he honestly, this is the one you're gonna think of.


Rayshawn Buchanan  10:38

Oh, for sure. And I definitely have to go into the rabbit hole. And I know, we're probably only 10 minutes in. This is where, you know, since we are in New England podcast, I have to bring up the Celtics performance. None of us were around for it. So you know, you know, maybe just Mike No, I'm kidding. I know. He's the oldest of the group, but


Rob Kelly  10:54

I think I know this.


Rayshawn Buchanan  10:56

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I just want to take a stab at my love You big guy. But no, so Todd are, you know, are great time heist and rest in peace. Simon Eisen had 37 and 23, his rookie year, game seven in the finals. 1957 What a team would Bill Russell what it seemed but Kuzey it was Jai Singh who won and won the MVP of the finals, he had 37 and 23. So that's a hell of a performance to win a closeout game with all the marbles on the line. So just, you know, just to give us all the credit, I don't know.


Dave Clarke  11:25

I mean, I was actually going to do the exact same thing, because but that is a good one.


Rob Kelly  11:29

It's been 10 minutes south to Catherine mentioned with Yeah, I mean, we're here.


Dave Clarke  11:36

I was gonna do the exact same thing. I was gonna shout out a kgs performance in the go home game, game six, in a way. I think he had 14 rebounds, like 28 points or something. But he was like, completely dominant in that game and like completely untouchable. We had a team forward approach and Oh, wait, obviously. And like everybody contributed in that game. Every year. Everybody had a good game. I was actually obviously very excited that night, and I was under age, but I was drinking. No. Oh, dear. I got really drunk and started yelling about how Kevin Garnett should have been the Finals MVP, and we just gave it to Paul Pierce out of like, nostalgia, which I do actually sort of think is true, because Kevin Garnett was like fucking unbelievable in that Lakers series, especially in that game six. He was like, Yeah, 14 rebounds. I mean, that's really good. But 28 points or whatever it was. I don't know the exact numbers. I know. He had 14 rebounds. Good on the statline. But like on the eye test, if you watch that series back like Kevin Garnett is like absolutely out of his fucking mind. And he's like, ready to win us a championship and like in that go home game like he was done. He was like, this is it. We're doing it now.


Rayshawn Buchanan  12:35

That game was over at halftime, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, we really got it. So he got the one it was over.


Rob Kelly  12:40

Generally score 140 in that game. It was like 140 to 90 something right. 146 290-911-3192 131 92


Rayshawn Buchanan  12:49

He's right. Yeah. Forget it. Yeah, we


Dave Clarke  12:50

dominated them like their 92 was like, I mean, we were jumping around celebrating it like the start of the fourth quarter. It was over. Because I was a little worried anyway, not to like funky on is Kevin Garnett. Now, but I mean, he was good. Let's talk for a second about the thing I alluded to briefly at the start of the show, which is Chris Paul, was anybody else pulling for him in the same way? I was? Absolutely. Do you think? Do you think that? You know the way like, it must? I think it must have been maybe it was game four, it doesn't really matter. But LeBron showed up and he's like, I'm not here for anyone but Chris Paul. And it's like LeBron always does that corny shit where he's just like, this is my generation. Like I'm here for this. It's like, Dude, that guy has enough pressure on him like please for the love of god like stop giving ESPN and like the sideline reporters more material. It's like pile fucking pressure on Chris Paul. When they go he had a bad game and I saw some shit. I mean, it's all kind of blending into one because I was also traveling during this is all blending into like one game but there was one interview they asked Devin Booker, he's like sitting next to Chris Paul. They're like, Are you frustrated for Chris right now? It's like what are you talking about? Like your your


Rob Kelly  13:55

request to pull it in question man. Are you frustrated for Chris right now?


Dave Clarke  14:00

Like, honestly from where we are and what we do guys like and what we all went to college for and how we all met I'm usually so on the side of the media and like I really do sometimes feel they get a bad rap because they're like they're just trying to do their jobs. But Fucking hell like your quest for a narrative in this whole thing is so crazy that and you got it so wrong. Like the narrative emerged so beautifully, like from a neutral point of view about Giannis Antetokounmpo  where he came from interviews with him being like I just want to be in the NBA like all like you know, where his teammates got drafted and like the low draft picks and like, you know, they built not bought and like Giannis Antetokounmpo  is such a nice guy and he bought 50 chicken nuggets and they missed that narrative by a mile now we do that shit all the time. Don't get me wrong, but we they miss the narrative by mile. And all I all I really felt for Chris Paul wasn't so much getting was first finals and losing, but the manufactured pressure that this guy was under and like he did battle back from a couple bad games, to have like some decent performances. What he's about point guard that What did you want them to do? Like just take over the NBA Finals? Like I don't know, what are your thoughts, right?


Rayshawn Buchanan  15:05

Yeah, I mean yeah man met manufacturer pressure should probably be the title of this episode cuz that's exactly what it was right I was I was referring to get it and I wrote to someone after the Western Conference Finals I'm like, to me it doesn't matter who they face I felt like fitness was just gonna steamroll whoever they played. And a lot of moments, it after the first two games it looked like it and like, and I'm not gonna lie, I was riding high up that game six performance he had 41 points. I mean, he looked like the guy that I've been saying he is for a long time. And he's like, yeah, so yeah, that was I was I've got my great I mean, he's in the finals. He's there, you know. And then you know, games three or four really is where the series was last. Like, you can't have Devin Booker going for 40. And back to back games is phenomenal. But if he even just had 20 they probably went in one of those games. And then we have a game seven and who knows what could happen, right? You know, you play all year to have game seven on your foreign aid, obviously didn't get to that opportunity. But, you know, you know, we talked about dark rivers on here. And obviously Chris Paul was a player for dark rovers. But, you know, there's no player that's blowing more tool leads than Chris Paul, this is his fourth or fifth one. I mean, his career was less, you know, you know, yeah, he could be a front runner clearly, but just doesn't know how to close. And you know, like that old school movie, you know, Glengarry Glen Ross, you know, always be closing. He doesn't


Rob Kelly  16:25

know, the reference of the night, right?


Rayshawn Buchanan  16:27

Yeah. He does. But you know, he doesn't always close and you know, that's the problem. So maybe his name should become horseshoes as well. So I don't know. It was just rough to see I felt I felt bad to see but at the same time, as a you got to figure out to get the job done, Chris. And unfortunately, he didn't but you know, he tried but you know, he failed miserably unfortunately.


Dave Clarke  16:46

I mean, what are your thoughts on the Chris Paul situation


Rob Kelly  16:48

that came for was tough to watch him play, man? I don't know what happened to him. Where he me like you said it maybe it was the what Bron showing up? Maybe it was just that little added extra


Dave Clarke  17:00

pressure combination of things. Like it was a lot of different things are happening.


Rob Kelly  17:04

He doesn't have that it that like listen, so going into the series, you guys where we were talking about at the point God, can you compare him to Isaiah? No, you can't. Because Isaiah Thomas back in the day, like when he showed up for those games, like you knew he was going to do something because he's a Thomas, bro, he was one of the best players ever, especially in those moments that you needed him like he led those piston teams, to championships. What a matter. Chris Paul was never going to be that guy. You know what I mean? If Chris Paul, if you are relying on Chris Paul to get your points and win you the game, you're in a lot of trouble, because that's just not who he is anymore. And that's not who he's been for a long time.


Dave Clarke  17:45

I would argue against that a little bit, because I just think there's a little bit there's a little bit of unfairness involved in putting that pressure on him like even retro actively because this isn't even the best team Chris Paul's played on. You know what I mean? Like on paper like that Houston team on paper to me was better offensively at least.


Rayshawn Buchanan  18:04

Yeah, I mean, James Harden Malone, right.


Dave Clarke  18:07

James Harden to look like what do you know, you can't ask Devin Booker to be that at this point in his career. So when you look at, like, it's just like, that style of point guard that Chris Paul is has to be factored into this equation. Like he's not the guy to pull you out of a tailspin in a series like, like the way that it went to like everybody got so worked up about the sons because of like, the fun viral stuff that was going on with that guy like beating the shit out of somebody in the crowd and then being like sons and four and then like, he like didn't get brought up on assault, because everybody was like, I don't know, it was kind of funny. But the other guy threw the first punch so like, whatever.


Rob Kelly  18:40

But he was a dirtbag.


Dave Clarke  18:42

Yeah, like I do the first budget, Miss horribly, and just got his asked.


Rob Kelly  18:49

So what made it okay to go down that rabbit hole real quick is if you notice that guy in the nuggets jersey, tried to be like, Oh, I'm not going to do and he's like, No, you can't. And no one's gonna stick up for you if you do that.


Dave Clarke  19:06

I'll say this is like a quick PSA we used to do PSA all the time in our radio days is a quick PSA to everybody out there. We're all from New England. None of us are like exceptionally good at fighting. But we're all at least from the New England area. So I'm sure we've all had our knocks in 2021. Don't get into a fight because you might lose and someone's taping it. I guarantee you, someone's taping it. If you go if you hear that camera roll, you know what the sound of the camera roll is when a fight breaks off. worldstar and then you're fucked. If you lose your fuck you're famous for getting your ass kicked. So definitely don't do it in an arena because those goes viral even faster. So like, sons and four guy yeah, you might be that guy, but like, don't fly too close to the sun on that one. Anyway,


Rayshawn Buchanan  19:45

you're not that guy, Pat. You're not that guy. Not that guy. I want to make a point. Before we move on because Bobby made a comparison when we jumped on with the comparison on a previous show about Chris Paul and Isaiah Thomas. Oh no. fairness. Yes so obviously Isaiah Thomas ended up winning back to back and they went to three free finals in a row I did Thomas had his lumps to man like they lost to Atlanta. And they they lost to Atlanta a couple of times. They lost two. They lost a Boston a couple times. So, you know, they had to fight through some series in order to get to that, you know, they and you know, he thought he Isaiah Thomas says all the time, he said bosta taught us how to win. He said he said they were they were rats on several occasions. So he's uh, yeah, You're damn right. It felt good at eight first to finally get by them and get to the NBA Finals. And truth be told if he doesn't get hurt in that game six, I guess la they probably went through straight you know, you know, but that's a whole nother another segment of the day. But yeah, man, that's the thing. So but yeah, but you're right by within the day, he him in the team around him found enough to get the you know, they found a way to get the job done. And you know, I said DK you said it. You're absolutely right. It's not the best thing he's had on paper. I just think I said that this situation was convenient. And they were the best of what was left you know, and they found a way


Dave Clarke  21:01

to get into that for sure.


Rob Kelly  21:02

Because I never want to make that point. So that leads me to something else so and it's not where you want to go to a problem. So is this their best chance this was Paul's best chance to get right they're not right they're not going back man. Especially not with a team as constituted as it is because was an eighth grade but we saw his flaws when it came down to it in that game six he can't he's not at all offensive guy. You know, I mean, he doesn't have those elite offensive skills Yeah, as a five


Rayshawn Buchanan  21:32

I don't think it was that though. I think it was a confidence thing which is why remember that


Rob Kelly  21:37

dominated them right? You're right, but


Rayshawn Buchanan  21:38

it was monday wednesday like Yo, like y'all remember who you are type thing and that's the problem like you got to get to that wall and granted you obviously as a coach, you're supposed to uplift players. But if you have to constantly do that in the NBA Finals games is one thing. It's one thing it's one thing again 54 two regular season when it's like okay, you're going through a back to back you're tired something's going on at home okay, but in the NBA Finals where it's like I'm and I get it he was his number one pick a few years ago so maybe in his mind's eye look, I got myself we got booked. We got McHale bridges, you know, we'll be back. That's not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed. So you got you have to learn how to seize the moment, hopefully learn from the lessons book is young enough. They're young enough to figure that part out. But far as Chris Paul is best chance when I said we might get into this later on. I'm not so sure it was his best chance because of what you may do in the offseason, but we'll touch on that.


Dave Clarke  22:32

Yeah, I mean, that's a good segue to go into this. I will actually say one thing just I forgot to say before Isaiah Thomas didn't have a fucking seven foot tall, lab grown Greek fucking monster.


22:45

Just saying like to Chris just two different Chris boss,


Rayshawn Buchanan  22:48

just a guy named Larry Bird. You know?


Dave Clarke  22:50

I'm sure I'm sure. It's just that like,


Rob Kelly  22:51

it's just that like when Larry did an Indiana bred monster No, totally.


Dave Clarke  22:56

Like a larry bird or like, like you can. There's in your head, there's maybe not in practice, but in your head, there's solutions to him not beating you. Like if you're honest, just goes to 10 foot 10 foot out from the rim. He's going to beat you. There's nothing you can do anyway, it's just like, unfair. You know, it's like the way that basketball evolves like this shit happens all the time, where you just get a guy come along, it's like, oh,


Rob Kelly  23:18

he's just bigger and stronger than everybody. Like there's nothing anybody can do about it. before you move on from that to the evolution of goddesses game in the last two weeks. What was what was something that like, Listen, coming into this, like you didn't expect this kind of explosion from Jonas? Yes, he was amazing. But it almost seemed like he refined that offensive game. And that last two weeks where like, he wasn't taking those 18 foot jumpers anymore. He identified what it was going to make him and his team successful. And he stuck to it. And that to me is what really propelled them because like the jump that his game took over the past few weeks was unbelievable. He went from an MVP guy that you couldn't rely on in the playoffs to someone that you couldn't stop it there was nothing that the suns could have done a game sec nothing


Dave Clarke  24:04

You heard it here first breaking the real BK Bob Kelly was missing the point podcast accuses Giannis Antetokounmpo  of performance enhancing drugs two weeks.


24:14

Especially says Bob Kelly.


Rob Kelly  24:18

Is that COVID vaccine bro? No, I


Dave Clarke  24:20

mean she could make you run faster and jump higher would be 50% vaccinated. I'll tell you that right now. I'll tell you what, though, I'll tell you what, I think we have actually done to the root of it. And I think it's a thought that was sort of germinating in my head germinating Jeremy germinating in my head over the past few days. I kind of like yeah, germinating, germinate, germinating, germinating sounds like some German guy like attack. Me sure that to one of the eight. It's a thought that has been kind of occurred to me and I think we're kind of, you know, digging down to the root of it is that like the honest and not the sons one the mental battle. I think that Giannis Antetokounmpo  went in Like a Finals MVP, he went in like a guy that was determined to win a championship that we've seen before, you know that you see, almost every year somebody decides, I'm not losing LeBron James has done it a number of times. He tried to do it against the suns, okay, but it was just like not possible. You know, I've seen the Steph Curry's of the world do it. I've seen the Kevin Garnett's the world do it. It's like it's what your mentality is when you walk in and I really do think you kind of put if you maybe not at the time, but in retrospect hindsight, you can see that Chris Paul was like far like I finally made it to an NBA Finals like this is a lot of pressure and then there was like a stinker of a performance and then like, you know, that's just gonna get in your head and like you it's not that he's a mental midget but you have to be a mental giant to do what Be honest sort of did like Yes, he's equipped with all the tools Yes, he has all the athletic ability in the world but like we've seen that not be put together a billion times and you know, he went in with the right attitude and you like you absolutely have to respect him, however, leads me to my next point, and there's something I definitely want to talk about we just touched on are we giving credit to two teams that should not have made it to the NBA Finals? If it weren't for what we what some basketball experts like Mr. LeBron James himself has called out as kind of a shitty season for the reason that a lot of people got injured because they came back earlier than they initially promised. Players weren't really ready he said everybody was going to get injured around playoff time and we're in it's not a conversation about LeBron but it did happen. So now that we have a bunch of injuries being a factor in this does that take away from Let's start with the sons does it take away from the sons would the sons have made it there? Would they have made it through you know, in a fully ad healthy Los Angeles Lakers for instance? And if they didn't, what does that look like for the bucks? But what if ad standing down there is Yana able to do the shit that he was able to do? Or is he shooting 10 to 10 three point shots because he was no one else to do Radiohead?


Rayshawn Buchanan  26:52

Yeah, I mean, obviously health ad changes it and honestly I'm trying to I'm trying to practice and not practicing and hypotheticals good. I know we say if this literally all we do, the show would be too good. I know but it's just like I'm just like I'm speaking to what actually happened so I was like, Yeah, okay, ad got hurt. Okay, but I'm like, ad is not someone that's made it through seasons before. So it to me that I'm like, that's not a thing, Kyrie Irving as much as you know, Kyrie or someone has got hurt we know a Celtics fans. He did not play in a season where they had a regular offseason. So shit happens, injuries happens. So it's just like, okay, like, Phoenix was the number two seed It was like, they were the eighth seed and they made this run like the 99.


Dave Clarke  27:38

To remind myself of that, I was like, wait, I was like, wait, why are they not in Milwaukee? Oh, shit. Like Phoenix had a higher record like dumb I know, like dumb brain. But


Rayshawn Buchanan  27:46

right. You know, I'm saying so that this is LS LS they go to baseball route where it's like, which I think that would be pretty cool. Actually, when they go back to Eastern Western and say whoever wins that conference gets home court and the finals. I think that'd be awesome. That'd be a nice little wrinkle to it. But once again, that's a whole nother thing for Dave to create another game where we can manage them. That'd be awesome. So stay tuned for that. You know, that's our creative guide in that regard. But yeah, I just say like, we forget Phineas was the number to see like they were so they should have beat LA. Once again, la they were injured before the playoffs and even started so to speak. You know, I'm saying


Dave Clarke  28:17

that big LeBron injury factors into what I'm saying though, you know, like, lengthy, lengthy injury.


Rayshawn Buchanan  28:21

Yeah, for sure. And then even but then I was also the next round today now face the MVP of the league. I know Murray was out but they think Nicola Yokosuka Goku was the MVP, and they just be Portland. Right? So it's just like, there was still players there. And I know kawhi and I'm getting hurt out there out there a few games, but it's just like to me that Yeah, they Outlast everybody. But I mean, to me, it's just like, yeah, they got there. So I just, I don't want to keep talking to circles. I just felt like they earned that opportunity they got there and I mean, I'm not gonna knock them for being healthier than everybody else again.


Dave Clarke  28:50

I totally I totally appreciate it. I appreciate what you're saying. Because what you're saying is you know the old adage which I say all the time you can only really usually say when it's my team's but you can only play with put in front of you right you can only play what's in front of you. And also it's not as if and I think this is one of your other points it's not as if they didn't overcome adversity it's not as if they didn't beat people that that needed fucking beaten. You know what I mean? Like they didn't they didn't beat anybody that was like too fucking soft to not be a playoff team. I don't know if I necessarily agree but let me let me see if the barbecue has an alternate pointer for you raise with you Bobby, what do you think? Is it did injuries get these teams to the playoffs to this suns the playoffs? Or was it their sheer grit determination? So I


Rob Kelly  29:28

I feel like they wouldn't be in Denver. Even if mario was healthy, because you don't think Luka Dončić is a real MVP? They


Dave Clarke  29:34

do because I really fuckin don't but anyway.


Rayshawn Buchanan  29:37

Oh, wow. Really? Okay, I didn't know that. So now but okay.


Dave Clarke  29:40

I'll just say one thing. I'll just say one thing. I only don't think that he's the real MVP is because I don't think we all have completely agreed on what an MVP is. I don't think we've agreed. Is it the best player for a team? Is it the best player on a team or is it the best player in the league? And I think that like that, to me is what I think it should just be the best player in the league. If it were up to me, the MVP the most valuable player will be the most valuable player to the basketball not to the team or on


Rayshawn Buchanan  30:07

some political could that's it get LeBron LeBron would be LeBron LeBron LeBron would go down he is gonna


Dave Clarke  30:11

say that I was just kind of stay that. So and I want to go the non fun route. I want the Bron to have won most of the MVP in the last 10 years because he fucking was he just was like it just you know, I mean, it's fair.


Rayshawn Buchanan  30:22

I agree.


Rob Kelly  30:23

I agree. He can't show me a league bronze not the most important to player to his kid. Like,


Dave Clarke  30:30

Katie, Katie Steph Curry a year or two I think that there was even this year I was looking at Steph this year for MVP. I thought he was fucking playing out of his mind and I think he should factor in you should factor in context. You should factor in what they mean to the league overall. You should put like a Walter Payton Man of the Year factor in there like what did they do for their fucking communities? everything? Everything. Put everything in there. Jaylen brown


Rayshawn Buchanan  30:54

baby. Exactly, exactly, though.


Dave Clarke  30:56

It's like most important player. Yes, obviously. We have to talk we have to we're talking about the top five guys in the league talent wise, you can make that shortlist really easily, but then factor in everything else. And did they get their team to the playoffs? Like what what was their fucking record? Like? Did I ask all the questions otherwise, it's to me it's a funny award anyway, sorry, for the smallest side. But Bobby, please go ahead and tell me what got them here.


Rob Kelly  31:19

Listen, I'm always down for a basketball tangent. So so. Okay, I feel like this narrative of like the injuries could have would have been a bigger story. If Yiannis didn't do what he did. Yon is going off like he did in these NBA Finals, save the NBA from that, like injuries guided this playoffs injury. So that's because listen, what it comes down to it is the best player, right? The best player was on the biggest stage, it had the best game that we've seen in the last 10 to 15 years. And that is going to be what's going to drive this NBA Playoffs into like, getting away from that injury standpoint, because like I've told you from beginning when you keep saying this is like I completely get where that's coming from. Because when you look back at the season, if you told me at the beginning of the year, the two teams that were going to be in the goddamn NBA Finals with Milwaukee Bucks in Phoenix. I was like, You're fucking crazy. Yeah. So So yes, it is the injuries lead to where we are 100% they would not have been there without the injuries. They also wouldn't have been there. If Kevin Durant didn't have one common drink was the size 11 instead of 12. The nets are in the finals. So and buds not the head coach of the box anymore. Yeah. So like, you know what I mean? Like, there's so many different things that you could say, but Giannis Antetokounmpo  saved that narrative by putting one of the most historic performances ever that we're going to remember for the next 50 years. So, yes, and no. I know. It's like, I show you to be that middle guy. But


Dave Clarke  32:50

no, no, actually, I thought you know what I was, I was prepared to go on this whole fuck goddamnit I mean, leave it to you to do like the weird kind of like, I smoke a lot of pot like third party, like perspective on it. But like, I also did just smoke pot, like, while we were recording the show, and I made it and I'm thinking like that now too. I think I was so ready to be like, whatever, dude, it doesn't count like fuckin asterisk two years in a row. You've heard what I've been chirping about on the fucking Discord. You know, the Brooklyn Nets were the most talented team in the east, like they just were on paper, the inch of Kevin Durant's foot, like they were better in that series. In my opinion, they were the better team in that series. And it kind of came down to one like really dumb, tired Kevin Durant play. But now that you say that, when you say, it's like you're saying the ends justify the means. And as much as Yeah, there was injuries. And that's disappointing. If I was to make the point that overall, the product was lessened because of all the injuries and we didn't get to see the best players, which I did make that point repeatedly where I was like, I just want to see the best players in the finals. Your rebuttal to that would be well, we got a really fucking good finals and like a really cool game six, like all time games, six performance. So like if the product get lowered or the team you want to win that win. I feel like yeah, that's probably the case. And I did did strangely. Just change my mind a little bit. But


Rayshawn Buchanan  34:07

right, but I think what it is, too, and this is the need that none of us on this show, including our wonderful theater producers in this category. We are not casual fans, right? The casual fan was lost in this series, but those that love basketball did like the pure basketball fans, we were going to watch the shit regardless. Yeah, you don't say that. So if you speaking that the casual fan was lost. I mean, there's no argument there, like the ratings and other stuff on Twitter. And social media like that speaks for the markets. The market idea of the market is I think, to finish not a large market. Neither is Milwaukee. So I get it because I said Milwaukee is more worried about the Brewers at times and I'm more worried about the Packers, especially what's going on, you know, with Aaron Rodgers saga, so it's like I get it but at the same time I say Giannis Antetokounmpo  is one of the biggest stars of not going to become the biggest star and you know Booker is coming. You know, I'm glad that he mentioned that he wasn't that he wasn't cold because those compares The crazy art guy and bosses closer to him than he is, but like so we're not going to get into that right now. I just had to throw that in there. So you know for my homeboy, Kim that listening sorry that was for that one. We're definitely gonna get to that. Yeah, no. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I forgot. I never know. But yeah, so that's the thing. So, yeah, man, like, I like that. To me. The casual fan was lost as I put that in air quotes, but I said the basketball appears that you know, all of us are. I said, We enjoyed a while it's I speak for me, I enjoyed it as a basketball purists I enjoyed the series and I was happy to see that yonder sign through instead of seeing games being like 79 or like, you know, 74 that that would have been me off but we weren't going to see that night in today's MBA anyways,


Dave Clarke  35:38

breaking you heard it here first ratio, um, you can have the missing the point podcasts as fuck casual fans, we don't need that on a T shirt. But that on a T shirt and twice on Sundays. He says no, I mean, I agree to a certain extent I think I you know, obviously I'm gonna watch the NBA Finals every year like regardless of who's in it and be a little sad that it's not subjects and also but also at the same time this year I was a little I wish I didn't do this now that I'm talking to you guys about it and like a retrospective but I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about about the Bucs and that series because I was just like, I like I saw KD kind of elevate and the honest diminish in that series. So it was hard for me to compute what was happening in real time as Giannis Antetokounmpo  was like putting on this MVP performance because it always had this like, why didn't you fucking guard KD in those first five games, though, you know, like thing in my head for that for that whole thing? And I was so excited, like overblown excited in that Eastern Conference Finals. And everything that went down I was a little bit like, fuck like now we got to watch these two shitty small mega teams but you're right like in the Cinderella narrative of the whole thing I think I should have been a little less bitter about it and I'll take that advice under consideration moving forward in my sports watching career All right, that's enough about the Bucs and the suns and sad Chris Paul. He's still got millions of dollars doing fuckin State Farm commercials. He can't feel too bad about him. Bobby has one caveat before we move on.


Rob Kelly  36:59

Yeah, know what one person that like so to go off here, who else stood out? There's one person who's gonna come out of this as a completely different player than everyone views him right now. And that's Khris Middleton.


Dave Clarke  37:11

I know you're gonna see Khris Middleton I still he sucks.


Rob Kelly  37:14

I know but the narrative around him is now different. First of all, he hit that clutch shot in that last couple of minutes. That was a difficult shot and he drained it. Plus now he's he was the Robin on an NBA championship team. No matter what forever that's that's what he is. You know what I mean? That's what he was.


Dave Clarke  37:31

Totally. Do you agree though that 12 years ago? At this way Yeah. 12 years ago at this point you could be making the exact same word for word including the he hit that club shot sentence point about Derek Fisher but we're still sitting here right now. Nobody gives a fuck about Derek Fisher right so I'm just saying never to Robin though. You know like was the second best he was the second most important he


Rob Kelly  37:52

wasn't the Robin


Dave Clarke  37:54

Oh no, he was just I guess so. I guess so. But


Rayshawn Buchanan  37:59

you remember Fisher Fisher was there for all the ones


Dave Clarke  38:01

Fisher Fisher hits so many big shots. Dude, he had so many big shots for them like I'm just saying regard fine. Not Robin Batgirl I don't give a fuck I'm just saying I


Rob Kelly  38:11

don't care who's on the team. He was an Avenger.


Dave Clarke  38:13

I know. Yeah, definitely. Powell for sure. And then like Shaq before that like I get it and you know the Kobe was good at recognizing what he needed in his game, which was like a big man to play with to play off of but I don't know. I don't know Khris Middleton. I'm still not convinced. But sure.


Rayshawn Buchanan  38:27

I'm with you Gk and it just you like I'm nice. I get it. Yeah, it was cool. He stepped up when he needed to but there was still so many moments where I didn't like that he like he would go for 14 the next game be like 1619 like that. That was that was that was one of us and one of our one of ourselves things. were killing him on the show the next day. And Craig is bleeping out everything we say.


Rob Kelly  38:48

Marcus smart right on fucking crazy. Greg doesn't bleep Oh shit. We save credibly.


Craig D'Alessandro  38:56

Thank God it's a podcast. If I believe that what you guys said to be half the show.


Rayshawn Buchanan  39:02

Right now. Excuse me. No, that's true, though. But listen, as Chris Benson became the player that he is against the Celtics. He'd be a top 10 guy. Yeah, because he kills Boston. He absolutely kills Boston. people killed me at three he had a couple years ago and the first I was in the first round from like, almost fucking half court. I was like Jesus like, What is going on? Man I think it is yeah, go back to that series. Right.


Rob Kelly  39:30

Was that Wait, wait, wait before those Terry rozier were rosier drained and Bledsoe his face right.


Rayshawn Buchanan  39:37

Made of made Who? Who is that guy? You know, you know who he is now. Oh, that's it. Just take it to him. I know he had to be sick watching this finals. Because I might, you know, to be under play on both teams. You know, he was closer to Milwaukee a couple years ago. The last time I finished was decent. He was in Phoenix when that team is all my damn.


Dave Clarke  39:58

What I love about Bledsoe Is that I made a very loud point to anyone that would listen when he was the best bench point guard in the NBA. He was like a six man on Phoenix. And like it was like he's got you whoever he gets treated like he's the next thing. I was like, Guys, I'm telling you, that doesn't work. It doesn't work like that in basketball like the best six men the best like bench guy. Is that for a reason, especially a guy with Chris or with Eric Berg says, like, you know, talent level and like rock, dude. Yeah, exactly. It's like no, no, like the best that if I was his manager, I'd be like, Eric, the best thing for you is to just like stay exactly where the fuck you are and be like a high paid six man because like your career might take a shit. If not, and it happened. Yeah, it happened while but but yeah, so finally recovered from the bugs in the suns. We're going to talk about the Boston Celtics, because we've been kind of alluding to that and we all love talking about the Boston Celtics coming into this next season, we made some good moves that I think we've all sort of talked about a good move for next season, like not this upcoming season with the season after that as far as like salary cap and stuff, but we do have to, we're all gonna sit around and watch like almost every single Celtics game. So let's talk about what this current currently constituted Celtics team looks like. And more specifically, I'd like to discuss something I saw Ray talked about on Twitter today that I responded to, and that is Jayson Tatum in the level of criticism that he's enduring even in this offseason, which I'm relieved about because last offseason, I was criticizing him a lot. And now I at least am smart enough to know to not fucking talk shit about Jayson Tatum anymore. But at least I admitted I was wrong. I can't believe there's because I'll go down I swear to god Ray has these Twitter conversations sometimes. And he's like a good quote Tweeter, and I'll go down the rabbit hole of these fucking tweets. And he's a deep into NBA Twitter, but he's in like black NBA Twitter, like I'm not allowed in there. So like, I go, I go start, I go start looking at start looking at these comments. And I'm like, I'm like what this guy's comedy Tatum. And like, I you know, I think the original guy today, whatever his name was, was like, just trying to be controversial, which like, I can relate.


Rayshawn Buchanan  41:56

I can relate. Oh, my God.


Dave Clarke  41:59

But like, what it's like, but I mean, I keep trying, but you're I'm just kidding. So it does. But the funny thing about it is is like I can't believe after that post all star break performance. And I said this to you on Twitter right after that post all star break performance and at that playoff performance when he we were dead like we have nobody. And he went off on the Brooklyn Nets who I maintain are a great fucking basketball team injuries are no when Kevin Durant's on your team, You're unbelievable. Kevin Durant even had to say some shit about Jayson Tatum. Like he I remember him being reluctant to say that Jayson Tatum was good because everybody was comparing him to Katie and Katie was like, I don't know, man. I'm pretty unlike 611 you know what I mean? Like he was kind of like, never ready to say it. Finally is I know that dudes gonna be really fucking good. Like, that guy is gonna win a championship like it's the case, right? So leave Jayson Tatum alone. Bobby, why won't people stop talking shit about Jayson Tatum. Like I learned my lesson and I'm a fucking Big Mouth Bobby Tell me like what where's this logic coming from? And who is the guy cuz you're the one you know? You're the one Tim's the truth. So tell me about


Rob Kelly  43:04

probably preaching to the choir. I don't know it's been like this for a long time. And I feel like it's because first of all, a lot of it does come from that Boston narrative. It really does have words in it he hasn't done it yet. Why hasn't he won a state championship yet? Like if he's really the truth then he would have brought us there already. And it's just like, dude, I can't stand it because people that like us and after you saw in that second half of the season this year when you know basketball, you know a killer when you see one you know i mean they just have a different a different way they approach the game they have a different way that they go at people and when they take over a game you can feel it you know what I mean? Like when I was at that spurs game, even in that first half like me my buddy were legit like Tatum tonight's on you bro. Like you can feel it in the atmosphere that he was about to take this game over. And there's not many people that have


Dave Clarke  44:02

let me let me go on that front though. I agree with you that he is like that guy. And I think Ray agrees to based on like his vigorous nodding why you said that but podcast listeners can't see that.


Rayshawn Buchanan  44:16

Amen.


Dave Clarke  44:18

And you can always tell when he disagrees with you. He doesn't have to say anything you know you're about to get disagreed with but that's probably true of all of us, actually.


Rob Kelly  44:24

But it's like what I was just talking about that feeling you just feel like


Dave Clarke  44:28

anything like I was reluctant to see it be for me because there was a lot of inconsistency and inconsistency in your star player kills you. inconsistency in your star player fucking kills you like you need a guy that can turn that shit on at will or you will not want a championship. That's just it. The honest figured that shit out late this year. But he did it. He turned it on. He did it. I will do you think and my question to you is do you think that it's Jayson Tatum's demeanor, and his generally soft spoken attitude towards interviews is like all this stuff that causes us to think that he isn't Kobe Bryant level of murderous or is that soft spoken thing? kind of insane because after he went off on Brooklyn, I saw his post game interview and he was just like, Hey, how you doing everybody? I'm like, this guy's a fucking psycho. Holy shit. He just had the game of his life in the playoffs against like, the most incredibly constituted super team ever. And he was just like, I'm just gonna go home and like, see my kid maybe murder someone? I don't know. Hey, there's my boy over here. Yeah. So what do you think it is? Why is it? Do you think that people are so reluctant to believe that Jayson's like that,


Rob Kelly  45:28

so you know what I feel like so he just kind of led me brought my brain to my point. So I was great. Good job. So like, you know what I feel like it's because of that softness. Before you saw that killer mentality at the end of the season, I wouldn't have blamed you for having that point of view. And I didn't blame you for having it when you did. It's just if you can actually watch this guy play basketball in the last few months and say, you know, I feel like the Celtics would be better off without him. I don't think this guy's gonna say that out of your fucking mind. You're literally out of your mind. So I haven't seen race conversations on black Twitter.


Dave Clarke  46:03

They're great. They're great unless you're Rachel Nichols.


46:14

They're not so fucking great.


Rob Kelly  46:16

But if we're actually coming at you right about Jayson Tatum then they don't because I know you are and you've been on my side for since day one but like this dude is a specimen. And when you have guys like k d when you have guys like Allen Iverson when you have the great of the NBA going off about how special someone is. That's when you know you have something because greatness recognized greatness. And that's how it always says when someone is great. And I look at someone like that guys the fucking truth. You better fucking listen to.


Rayshawn Buchanan  46:51

Yeah, I mean, but that's what happens when you listen to certain you know, media and radio hosts that you know, just want guys to be super fiery. And we all know what we're talking about. But we've got to come on the show. So I won't name names but it's just like go once again, Celtics fans. We are the most negative fan base in the NBA is on real it's unreal.


Dave Clarke  47:12

It's fine. Cannot us though, right? Like I feel like we don't bring a lot of Celtics


Rayshawn Buchanan  47:15

I'm totally negative but like


Dave Clarke  47:19

you do like the Patriots like Red Sox negativity where you I think you approach the Celtics in a similar way where you go like, yeah, I mean, like, I This sucks. This needs to be better, like whatever. But there is a certain mentality on like Boston Celtics Twitter, where I find myself I think I'm one of the more concerning people about how good our team is on this podcast. And I find myself reading some of their tweets and I'm like, Guys, leave them alone. Jesus fucking Christ.


Rayshawn Buchanan  47:43

It's ridiculous. But just you know, just to harp on the tenor point a little further. With his rookie year to 2017 2018 his killer instinct should have been questioned after that. We saw him as a rookie. Go into Milwaukee. I met Daniel when that game four but that game for Monday was down to him and Jaylen was taken or your turn my turn. And then he does want to step back jumbled and just know that y'all his mouth. Sorry. I couldn't think of anything better. That's exactly what happened. Like he's we saw those moments he yams on the brawn. And he got like, What are you talking about? Like, just once again, then there's at least 27 teams in the NBA that would kill to have Jayson Tatum and Jaylen brown on the team. I said, Well, I know we're just speaking about them. But Mike, we saw a moment the only season I feel like that was a wash to his career so far was the year that carrying them left for us on the 2018 2019 year he was kind of lost in limbo, but I felt like all year he had a good first round because Indiana but he kind of it just it was just it just wasn't there but we saw it as a rookie. We even saw it last year after the all star break in 2020 he was once he became a first time All Star the game against the Clippers the game against a Denver of the 36 in Portland like what are we talking about? Like this dude is straight he's straight cast when he's on like that there's no you know shots of Randy moss he's straight cash on me when he's on like there's no debate with that so I don't understand but I said Twitter black Twitter, Asian Twitter white Twitter expanding Twitter is just you know Southern sort of just a weird like


Dave Clarke  49:13

all Twitter all about Twitter green. about Twitter. Green Twitter's the fucking weirdest one.


Rayshawn Buchanan  49:20

Exactly. At all. All Yeah, all that all sort of like selfish. Twitter is the worst version of that Twitter is it's a joke. They're gonna come for us. Yeah,


Rob Kelly  49:30

we said this last year. Wait, we said this when I showed you we just ratios black everyone. Alright. We're just


Rayshawn Buchanan  49:40

like, Hey, guys, like, you know, I'm like, I promise if you go onto the page, Craig Craig does a great job of showing who I was. On the show. I promise you, I promise you. I got a white t shirt on but I am like, I promise. You know, but oh my god.


Dave Clarke  49:54

I know it's 2021 and when I say things like that, but I think they can tell from your voice. So Moving on. And obviously an AVI Oh


Rayshawn Buchanan  50:03

my God,


Dave Clarke  50:05

then I am a small and very sexy Asian lady. So moving on. I don't mean this Mr. Kelly riddle me This is the Tatum conundrum down to the fact that all of us secretly or subconsciously or both think that he's the reason that the team quit on Brad.


Rob Kelly  50:22

Oh, great question. That's really good question. So Wow,


Rayshawn Buchanan  50:27

yeah, I'm trying to think to him I said,


Dave Clarke  50:29

I think I was blaming him for it. I think I was blaming him for it, honestly. But Alright, so I think this


Rob Kelly  50:35

goes back to like, the type of demeanor he has if he is then then that means she's doing it quietly behind closed doors, and that means we're in trouble. So if that's the case, I don't know not


Dave Clarke  50:47

at all or not you don't want him to do you don't want him to do weird ask the Bron fucking tweets, right where like cryptic LeBron, I hate Jr. Smith, but I don't want to admit it tweets, right. And you don't want them coming out and saying shit in the media, like Kyrie would have been mad to dog.


Rayshawn Buchanan  51:01

51 points, and you sit there you don't know what's hot. I've been hot too. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't


Dave Clarke  51:09

you also don't want you don't want them to be you don't want them to be Kyrie Irving. You know, it's the same weird as shit to the media every two weeks every time you lose a game, but I blame it on my thing.


Rob Kelly  51:17

I feel like it's okay, though. Because if that's the case, the way that they handle it and the way it all went down. If that is what happened, that music got handled correctly. That means she went to the proper channels. He needed to talk to the right people as like, Listen, this is how I feel like we can win a championship. I feel like we can keep everything going the way it is. I like Brad's mind. I like the way he does things. However, I feel like we need a fresh face. I feel like we need someone in here who can really light a fire under your ass. So could have been handled at the end of the season, maybe are handled better at the end of the season, maybe but how it all went down and how everything happened, how we got our new head coach, how it's now like a player's coach, I'm really gonna drive you guys. If that is what happened. I kind of like them even better than you know what I mean. I'm gonna turn it and be like, Listen, at the end of the day. It's like did he improve the team then? I do. Right? Exactly. It's a good way of a better chance moving forward and winning a championship constituted with the coach we have with the doca with Tatum and brown being like the leaders of the team. I feel like we're in a better spot than we were so raking. You heard it here first on the MTV podcast Bob Kelly says Jayson Tatum is a snitch and asked bitch and he went to principal about Brad Stevens target here, bro heard it here first


Rayshawn Buchanan  52:36

fight No, no, no, I'm glad that Bobby went first to that but no, I just think that you know, this is this is another guy I want to bring up and then the silent killer thing right so you know we never had issue with Tim Duncan being super quiet right


Dave Clarke  52:48

now. But he's European.


Rayshawn Buchanan  52:51

Yeah, it's an aversion okay. Yeah, cool.


Dave Clarke  52:53

Or whatever not European but like not yeah but no


Rayshawn Buchanan  52:55

i got i got yeah he's he's he's not from it


Dave Clarke  52:58

differently and his game was like funding he had a different rap he had a different narrative you know,


Rayshawn Buchanan  53:02

right but I'm saying about the reason why I'm going to the best player on the team you know you had you got David Robinson he comes in as just like you know, from day one says I just want to come in and do my job and you know, listen, we're coach Bob says and you know, that's the thing right? Your best player has to be coachable right so now Tatum missile you dog like you You have asked you and get you in general Bob asked for a coach that looks like you You now have that right. So now we'll call you to say okay, we're going to run through a wall for that for this coach.


Dave Clarke  53:28

Right Enter Now you This is your last chance before it is your fault. Yeah,


Rayshawn Buchanan  53:31

yeah, exactly. Right. So that that's the thing. So now I said like Bobby said if he went through the proper channels and spoke to a weapon and spoke to Mike, Zarin and Austin Ange, and you know, Danny's saying like, yo, we need a new change. And that that's, that's perfect. And I do think Brad is already showing in that GM role that he's not gonna have that horses mentality. I feel like that's already happening. And the way he overachieved as a coach the first few years is I feel like he's going to overachieve. As a GM in the first couple of years him being a GM if he stays that long, right. I know anyone that we've had on our shoulders that that he's going to be in the GM role for that long. You know, I


Dave Clarke  54:04

was Mike started a rumor that he was fired and now everybody thinks it I don't know, I didn't know we had this reach. Like, I didn't know. I swear to God, the first person to say that was Mike. And now everybody thinks


Rayshawn Buchanan  54:17

but that's all that shit was like, but I mean, I know like Josie performed that we had on our show that put that in the show notes by like, you know, I know he talked about how Taylor may not be here. I'm not saying that Brad Stevens may not be in that room for long Jeff Goodman who have not had on the show if you want to come on brother Come on, come on to the show. But Jeff Goodman talked about it as well on his on his podcast with Bob Ryan. So yeah, like that to me. Is that blessing he's done what he has to do but yeah, but they better figure it out. Better figure it out. But yeah, I do think because actually your original question about why do people get on him? Yeah, it's because the quiet laid back demeanor. And because this is such a rah rah in your face type of city type of sports town, especially from 2004 to now especially, you know, the fan bases. Were just wild. So let's analyse Okay, you have to be a devotee is type You have to be a Brad Martian type you know you have to be adjusted for Georgia type so that that's the type of athletes who gravitate to that's why we love Isaiah Thomas as well right not the one who played in Detroit but when they came here like yeah that that team was


Dave Clarke  55:12

fighters you know I should be a fan there is no NBA fan that doesn't enjoy hasn't enjoyed Boston and I've videos of Kobe Bryant being a dick in practice no one hasn't enjoyed that. I loved every second


Rayshawn Buchanan  55:23

right exactly. So that's exactly what we're looking for. But I have to once again we've been doing breaking news breaking news you're not getting that Celtics fans you're not getting that from Tatum that's not that's not that's not that's not Kevin Garnett right


Dave Clarke  55:36

because like he was the ultimate fuckin psychopath like loud in your face cut that shit out of here kind of guy


Rayshawn Buchanan  55:42

everyone can't beat it and people are mad that it's really market smarter seem there's like that but because he has a one on Greg he's our j Mark green but because we have one people are fed up with Marcus more including us. That's what if we if we won, they wouldn't they wouldn't we want to complain about what


Dave Clarke  55:58

we want. A lot of those shots might have gone in No, you


Rayshawn Buchanan  56:00

know that too. Right? But I'm saying like I just felt like he is rj margriet j margiotta. has caught he's caught going to stay games, but we don't talk about it because there are three time champions. That that's all it is. That's all it is.


Rob Kelly  56:12

It goes back to what you said with San Antonio. You're with Duncan. You're like why wasn't Duncan talked about? Like just because Duncan wanted championship after year two. Let me tell you if Jayson Tatum or is it year three, it was two I think it was two.


Rayshawn Buchanan  56:25

I mean, it was a guy named David Robertson


Rob Kelly  56:27

just yet so I'm just saying a Tatum comes in so so let's say different alternate universe. Tatum comes in at the ends of the Paul Pierce era, right? And all of a sudden, Tatum comes in and wins a championship as a rookie. Then he takes over the team it's a whole different conversation that we're having because this dude already has a ship. So it's that mentality that like listen can this quiet guy bring us a championship? Is this the right guy to lead us because it hasn't worked yet? So Boston fans automatically go to like it's not ever gonna work it'll never work doomsday scenario blow it out. Let's go


Dave Clarke  57:02

and just to bring the conversation full circle now that we're about to hit a nice clean hour if the question is Does your best player need to be as Ray said like the rah rah guy the in your face guy the loud guy to win a championship? Well, the honest isn't that guy. Like he honest just went out there and like with his big smiley face and scored a shitload,


Rob Kelly  57:19

but they have one but they have one and Bob. He's a competitor. I'm


Dave Clarke  57:22

not saying he's competitive, right?


Rayshawn Buchanan  57:24

I'm not gonna put body quarters in. x, Nicola. meritage. How he is out here. There's a leader. That's a cola meritage about Bobby portis? God no, no, you're just w a competitor. But yeah, definitely. He's more like, you know, Hey, come on, guys. Let's come on. Let's play together as a team. And so I mean, they're very, you know, very Disney like approach. But when you when you when you when he dunks on you that that anger comes out, right. And we really should have anger come out and


Dave Clarke  57:55

say we've seen him do that. Yeah, we've seen him.


Rayshawn Buchanan  57:58

You know, I mean, it's cool to show you emotion. Right. Jaylen Brown is more of that guy. He's more comfortable going up. But


Dave Clarke  58:03

we were saying he was quiet. You know?


Rayshawn Buchanan  58:06

He's quiet but he's he's definitely more outspoken and say that that's not available at this moment.


Dave Clarke  58:10

But I wonder though, I wonder now that like, I think it's finally just this past season really been decided? Like I think there was always kind of a whose team is it? And I always do hearken back to your point of like ray which is like we don't have to pick like we have both guys and like that did you know that did strike through strike true with me when you said it because I was doing that thing of like, Fuck, like, Who's the best guy you know, like, Who's the best kind of say it doesn't matter. We have both of them. I agree with you when you say that. But I wonder now that it's like now we all fucking know whose team This is. Two questions is to you. Ray is Jaylen brown going to be okay with that coming into next season? What's what do you think his attitude is? With regards to stuff like that? Does that mean Jayson Tatum becomes more outspoken now that it's sort of been decided he's earned that with his play.


Rayshawn Buchanan  58:53

I think Jaylen brown be fine with it. Because he's committed to winning, right? He's not committed to you know, who's getting 40 and getting 50. Like it was a couple of times with Tatum had a few chances to get milestone nights like it during the season. And Jaylen brown would give him the final assess to get 50 or to follow six to get 40. So they very much work hand in hand. We got to remember they came in back to back gear. This is number three pick. So they're essentially growing up together as a unit. So I think today we want to see each other succeed. And I think Jaylen Brown is the perfect complement to Tatum and ever guard up to see him grow and say like, Look, amen. You have the guy and you know that the best comparison I gave with those two. It's easy for 10 in the score 60 Jaylen brown got a fight to get 40 or 50. That's the biggest thing is when it's not today are not great players. So they both are. But if one thing becomes naturally easy to you, that is what made that's what sends you above the rest of the team. And that's all it is, like I said once again, from a character standpoint, like Jim, there's nobody better than Jaylen Brown. He's a leader. He's class personified. So we can't say that now. I went on there. So what was the second question again to Elon Musk right now


Dave Clarke  59:57

that he's now that he is kind of like the de facto decided upon leader of this team, will he now potentially become more outspoken be like, take a leadership role and with a new coach and it is lovely that we have fresh blood in the coaching in the locker room with the coach and kind of fresh blood even in the front office, Brad in a different role. And I think we all were kind of just saying that we fucking need that shake up that needs to happen. Does does this coach come in and say, all right, Jayson, you need to fucking you know, you need to be outspoken. You need to be this guy. And is he comfortable? That And has he wanted that? You know?


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:00:27

Yeah, I think him. I think he's maybe not saying he has to be more outspoken. I think because it may you doctor saw how pop handles him knocking I think he's saying hey, look, it starts with you, Tim, everyone else to San Antonio from online. Because Tim Duncan became coachable when I became but he was coachable from day one, right? So if Tatum shows he's coachable and brown shows he's coachable, Martin smart, so on and so forth. Like if the guys that are on the hierarchy are showing that okay, I'm coachable, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna run through the wall for the coach, then that triggers out so Romeo triggers down to granite took us down to Carson, that was it took us out to everybody else on the team, because I will shoot if he's there, like we'll shoot if he's going off that Tatum and Tam is taking it and you know, responding better? Well, you know, I'm not that guy on the team. I got to fall on line too. So that's what has to happen. So I think hopefully, those will those are the type of conversations that are happening in Tokyo and when they get there saying like, Hey, you know, it starts now in July starts now. The Olympics. You're the guy you know, I want you to work out like I love the video I saw with him right? He was working on him in a post please, please, please bring please bring that it was it was it was it was it was basketball? Yeah. Yeah, so I'm like please please, even if it's just a game there's no right exactly. Even if it's just three or four times a game please just get down there like and there's like 169 whenever


Dave Clarke  1:01:46

whatever about the amount of times he doesn't and again when the brawn learned approach postgame after they're gonna witzke fucking took it to them and that final series when he looked postgame he can turn around to whoever's guarding him and punish him at will. He could he is the kind of body where he goes like alright, like it's just in my repertoire now it's like oh shit like yeah, you I drove on you and you kind of got me that time like, why don't we go download see the fucking man is here. And like I think that to have that you're in your game. If you're above six foot seven at this point in the league, and you have any kind of mass you need to have some semblance of a post Yeah,


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:02:17

I say antenna tandems and tandems and he's in a weight room he he's got


Dave Clarke  1:02:22

like he's gonna be nine feet tall by the end of his career he gets bigger Bobby different question different question for you to round out this subject and then subsequently the the episode man thank you guys for being here. So so lovely to see you again. But different question for you, Bobby. We are decided crossroads in the Celtics and current built in the Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Jaylen brown build Marcus Smart to a lesser extent, I guess. The what is to you the best case scenario over the next five years of how this team looks, who's on it and what we win. And what is the worst case scenario over the next two years? Because I think that's when the worst case scenario is going to be evident. What are those things and like and use your imagination? Explain to me what those two very stark situations look like? Because I think both are equally possible at this point. Okay,


Rob Kelly  1:03:12

so best case scenario, short term is next year, Jayson Tatum averages 30 points again. And I think that's a very legitimate possibility that we see happen next year where he elevates to that level where he's on the harder and KD LeBron level of scoring. And I think that that's something that like seeing the ends of the season, seeing the way his game is developed, where he started attacking the rim. And if he actually adds in that post game, I feel like that's indisputable that that's a very good possibility. Beyond that, I really like the guys I want to bring in here we need a big man. So like, cat to me, as the guy that I think you bring in cat to this team. And I think it has, it turns this team into as good as some of the best teams. You know, they're as good as the Bucs are. They're just as good as nuts are having Jaylen. I'm not sure to be honest, like we need some assets. I think we're gonna see the purchase on this next upcoming here. So hopefully he like that one, You like that one? So I feel I feel like we're gonna we're gonna see that and I feel like his asset level is gonna go up a lot. But best case scenario is obviously NBA championship within the next I give them a window of because we just started a new regime, three years. Three years is the timetable to me. If you don't have a championship within three years right now, I feel like we're gonna run into a situation where one of them's gone. And and it's just the market we're in. It's where we live. It's who the city is. We're not going to be able to stand another three disappointing seasons in a row. Expect you what your changes that were made, will burn the fucking garden down. It'll be fucking out there with torches. Worst case scenario is we trade Jaylen brown for some package of draft picks or some packages, something that just is going to piss us off. And all of a sudden Jayson Tatum with free agency rollout for fucking nothing. And everywhere. That's worst case scenario 100% of both of them are gone in five years. And we're left setting here like what the fuck just happened?


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:05:25

I got that to me. And I mean, obviously, we want them to be here for their whole careers. But you I think, you know, DK, we talked about this on Twitter earlier. peers didn't went to your 10. And once again, I know it wasn't for the advent of social media. I get that but you still had the dashana sees the bob Ryan's you still had other people, you know, just the bullpen, you know. So you still had guys that was talking about this team pretty heavily and given going off of them in the newspaper going off on them on around the horn like they were still going going off about this team when they didn't win, right. So they had one run when they made the conference finals, then they lost in the first round the next year. It's a New Jersey, lost in the first round to Indiana The following year, then you lose a team straight then Oh, thank god they had and they get to number five, pick a tree get to Seattle and Gary Allen and they get Kevin Garnett. So it's like you need the right pieces to win the championship. And was a decade's labor. belabor this point on a few episodes, but it's like, how long do we wait, but it's like Yo, if we waited 10 years to get pierced that championship was another three or four. Now I get it and this era where you have to win immediately and there's like you went either win now you suck type thing, which is a fucking joke. Once again, a lot of you franchises that either either you listen to the show, or you're a fan of another team, happy to have your team has ever even touched me finals will touch the conference finals. So sit down, be humble, relax, and enjoy the show. Okay, like calm calm down. So I don't know, I just I'm conflicted because I'm like, I want them to win obviously in the next two or three years, but I understand that it's appears to get 10 and it took two or three other guys. Oh, yeah, two or three other guys that were hungry. Really four or five because they brought in some other veterans too that were ready to win at that time. So that's what has to happen as the best case scenario. My opinion.


Rob Kelly  1:07:11

Yeah, and bro. So to preach off that point, but you just preach the point I've been saying since day one with everyone that we've had this conversation with on the show is like winning a winning championship is hard, guys. It's not an easy thing to do. And you might


Dave Clarke  1:07:26

want one.


Rob Kelly  1:07:27

I wish I know. I want one too. But like, would you rate the great NBA players who never won a championship? You're Charles Barkley. We have john Stockton, cardi.


Dave Clarke  1:07:42

B wins harden every single time they say anything, dude. Yeah,


Rob Kelly  1:07:46

I know. But I'm just saying like, it's just the reality of like, the way it's the market we're in and it stresses me out, even just bringing it out. Because it's like, the way that we see a championship in Boston. It's just not our reality. You know what I mean? It's just not it's not an actual reality of how hard it is to actually win a goddamn championship. I will make the bucks. for the, for the bucks to win a championship. Kevin Durant had to wear a shoe that was one size too big. You know what I mean? Like the smallest thing. Right? It's just, it's crazy how hard it is to win a championship. So like, worst case scenario, you guess is us three years from now, not having a championship and then blowing it up. But like, I really just hope Jayson Tatum really loves the city is really what it comes down to. And I hope he's here for a long time with or without that championship, but I just don't see that happening in today's NBA. If we don't have a championship within three to five years. Yeah, he's gone 100% if there's no chance that contract runs out, he's added here so


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:08:52

so just one more point before DK close this out. We I know we keep talking about Bradley, Bill Bradley. Bill Bradley Bill. Thank God I love them too. But they got it. I think what actually wants to come here I think but actually dominant next to Tim Brown. Is Donovan Mitchell. I would get out I would give whatever they want it for Donovan Mitchell if he wants to sign here like that. That dude is that dude especially like to me, that's the guy I would put next to me Tim and Jaylen brown are super tight. I think him and Tatum are cool too. Like that to me. That's the that three right there. You know, championship, anything's possible. ballgame. All of that. Surely I'd be saying it all on the T shirt. Like we'd be doing a podcast on the CD garden. Cray get mobile because we're going to the garden baby like we're going we don't need roads. You know how to bring that back. But yeah, that's the guy but Donovan Mitchell to me would be the perfect guy here next to those two. And you're looking at a couple of rings if not more what that trio


Dave Clarke  1:09:49

is, regardless of specifics. I just hope they do what I've been asking them to do since you know years before we even get a get a big man. Let's not even get a big man. It's just it's just But when you have to swing man and this is like basketball fucking one on one when you have to swing men like we have to win players I should say like we have that play the way they play. You don't want a ball handling guard. I know it worked with Isaiah Thomas originally because they were fucking rookies and sophomores respectively and you could kind of do that and then just like kind of make the spot of shooters and like not put too much pressure on their minutes but like the way that their games are developed like you can put fucking anybody at the one leg you guys are making the point about Marcus smart running the one like fuck, it doesn't matter. That's just a guy to bring the ball up the court like we have two unbelievably talented wind players whose handles are getting better if Tatum's handles go up in the way that I think that they're gonna go up in this offseason like I think he's going to be a force to be reckoned with because I think his handles are actually better than people say I just think he's Rican freakishly fucking long. So sometimes it's like, it takes a little bit to start getting a dribble going but anyway, regardless, I agree Donna Mitchell great bring him in Bradley Beal great Bring him in. I read that we need a third piece but that's a conversation for another day. We have gone a little bit over and I can see you know, nice little beads of sweat trickling down Craig's lovely adorable face. So I will close it out with this one question and like no elaboration. I'm going to go to Ray first then Bobby, I want to know what is on October 19. I think his tip off day I don't know if we play that day but October 19 is tip off day in the regular season. What is our starting five for you to really see what we're made of as far as a fully healthy in this scenario basketball team. Ray, you can go first


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:11:24

we're gonna go smart, brown Tatum. I'm trying to know who the four is going to be are known for is going to be but I got Robert Horford As I thought, Oh, yeah, well, yeah, maybe. Well, I want him off the back. Oh, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm think I have them for signing a Fournier so so so so so so smart. Yeah. So smart brown Tatum. Fournier and then I never I Williams and now offer bu six man.


Dave Clarke  1:11:47

All right, that's that doesn't fill me with a ton of confidence in our season. Just go ahead Bobby.


Rob Kelly  1:11:52

All right, Marcus's point guard 40 year. I'm gonna completely agree with that, except I'm gonna stop in I'm gonna put Horford at the four starting because I think Horford just the way that he comes in and plays defense and controls the fours a dig man. I think that's something we could really use having someone at the top of the key like Corfu with the passing ability has playing off Tatum playing off brown and pritchards are six man allowing for the purchase chances. Alright, it's happening. I mean, great. I mean, he's a good shooter.


Dave Clarke  1:12:20

I'm gonna say that crazy things gonna happen. Brad Stevens is going to fuck up so bad as GM he's going to get fired but we're going to start to speculate that he might have naked pictures of wicks wife or something. So they're going to move into another position and that position is going to be the two on the starting fine and Brad Stevens is actually going to turn out to be lights out shooting you heard it here first break away from missing the point. Oh my god,


Rob Kelly  1:12:45

can I give you something for something real quick Gk cuz we haven't brought it out it was you said it in the first game of the goddamn season. Okay, you bought all this stock all this on fucking Jeff Teague. I didn't. And you know what, you know what happened? Jeff Teague gets a fucking NBA championship ring. All right. I mean, he played two minutes. He plays two minutes. I mean, it was minus five and games. Two minutes minus five and this guy gets like two more


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:13:19

points that four of us combined.


Dave Clarke  1:13:21

I'm just saying at the end of the day aren't wrong. I bought low and I sold high on Jeff T is you got to wait it out. Don't sell when it dips just waited


Rob Kelly  1:13:29

at gamestop bro, don't wait. Just wait.


Rayshawn Buchanan  1:13:33

A long time ago.


Dave Clarke  1:13:34

huddle. huddle to the end. That'll do it. I was a fucking great show from the basketball crew. I really enjoy talking NBA with you guys. I really enjoyed talking Celtics with you guys. insightful as always, you guys are fucking geniuses for me DK sizzle for our wonderful Executive Producer Craig D'Alessandro for rayshawn Buchanan and Robert Kelly. Good night.