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Nov. 10, 2020

New England Championship ReWrap: 2003 New England Patriots

New England Championship ReWrap: 2003 New England Patriots

New England Championship ReWrap - 2001 New England Patriots
Part 2
Championship Hangover - 2002 New England Patriots

It's time once again to crack open the championship vault and take a look back at the 12 championships the Boston Celtics, Boston Bruins, Boston Red Sox, and New England Patriots have won since the year 2000.
On this episode, we'll take a look back at the 2003 New England Patriots, a season where a team universally regarded as "one-hit wonders," led by a quarterback who was nothing more than a "game manager", and a coach who was "hated by his team" would once again prove the doubters wrong and use that doubt to launch the most successful reign in NFL history.
This is the New England Championship ReWrap: the 2003 New England Patriots.

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Transcript
Craig D'Alessandro:

On this episode of the snsw podcast, it's time once again to crack open the championship vault and take a look back at the 12 championships at the Boston Celtics Boston Bruins, Boston Red Sox and New England patriots have won since the year 2000. On this episode, we'll take a look back at the 2003 New England Patriots a season where a team universally regarded as one hit wonders led by a quarterback who was nothing more than a game manager and a coach who was hated by his team would once again prove the doubters wrong and use that doubt to watch the most successful rain in NFL history. This is the New England championship rewrap the 2003 New England Patriots but first This episode is being brought to you by boxo crafts box Oh is an arts and crafts focus kids subscription boxO is a parent run company that combines creativity and convenience in one monthly package delivered right to your door boxes premier box boxO holidays contains four separate art projects to get you and your family into the holiday spirit. Whether it's Halloween, Hanukkah, or Easter they've got you covered with holiday fun. BoxO crafts, we can't wait to see you create checkout box Oh crafts calm and exclusively to our listeners. enter promo code sn SW for 10% off your first order. That's B o x O crafts.com promo code SNSW. THE SNSW podcast is a one hour weekly two hour monthly podcast recapping the biggest stories in the world of sports with an original flavor. The show notes a transcript of today's episode can be found in the description box below, as well as our WordPress and buzzsprout pages. If you're new to the show, consider subscribing. It's the easiest way to see when we publish new episodes. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Google and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to rate us and leave a review of any of our shows. We always appreciate your feedback. Also, be sure to follow us on all of our social medias. All of our links will be in the show notes. And now this is the SNSW podcast. BUT IT'S ALL relative.

Rob Kelly:

Welcome everyone to the second edition of The New England championship. rewrap. I'm here with Rachel Buchanan Joe Malkin Mike Marcangelo. Of course grip is producer in the game. Greg Tao Sandra I'm the real BK Bob Kelly. And it's that time again ladies and gents. Once again a patriots a world champions. Welcome to championship. rewrap. 2003 patriots edition. How are we doing? Get

Joe Malkin:

good excited for this one man. It's it's kind of fun to do this after we talked about the the 2002 season we talked about the old one Super Bowl and I don't think this one's gonna be as exciting because it's not the first one. But this is gonna be a lot of fun.

Michael Marcangelo:

Yeah, I feel like we've been waiting a long time to do this. And and there is there's a lot in this season. I mean, I think it's easy to just only talk about the first one then talk about the you know, the latest ones, but like, oh three, again, just a lot. Like, do choose season we talked about like, oh, everything was built on these two seasons. This is this

Rayshawn Buchanan:

is great man. And like I said, the stem of a talk where we talked about an O two. And just how you know how poorly that and how that poorly that season ended? For us to go into how the season went and who they picked up. And just basically how we change the culture and how we were perceived. Not just in New England, but around the world.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, absolutely. And if everyone wants to listen to that 2002 episode, championship hangover, it'll be in the show notes below. So definitely check that out. Because it's a good one. Mike Mike Helston to good episode good stuff.

Joe Malkin:

You know, I was gonna kind of direct it towards Mike but it was my kind of brought it up about how there was so much in the season but of their six Super Bowls. This was kind of one of their best in a lot of ways. One of the funnest for sure, right? Yeah, 14 and two season I mean, sure. We had what, what wasn't, you know, seven that we'll talk about down the line. But I mean, I know Mike it, it's cringe worthy. But this one was just it had everything.

Michael Marcangelo:

I also think that like this year, like this particular year 2003 is when they establish their dominance. It wasn't 11 and five, right. It was there was there was a very clear cut, you knew going into that Super Bowl. Like they were i think i don't i don't remember if they were the favorite, but I think they were I think

Rob Kelly:

it was close to like seven to 10 point. They were

Michael Marcangelo:

four, I mean, 14 and two, and they were in machine that just kept on rolling. So yeah, let's get us into it.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so it all starts right after that 2002 season with the offseason. This is one of the biggest offseason that kind of catapulted this entire dynasty. If I'm being honest, this offseason, not only did they sign Rodney Harrison, who quarterback that defense all the way up until their undefeated season and almost undefeated season. But so they also drafted Asante Samuel who also went into that secondary and made that Secondary one of the best secondaries in the week that 2003 off season. I know there was a lot of questions when it came to bill. There was a lot of questions so the movies he was making and how that oh two season ended going into the season you guys you guys think that we were going to be that Super Bowl contender that we were in? Oh one?

Michael Marcangelo:

No, I don't think like I think after you go nine and 702 like you kind of just thinking about things like maybe Oh, one was a fluke. But we know they have they had a good foundational offense. Right? Deion branch David Givens and Daniel grammer all drafted the year before. So they have weapons there that you think okay, maybe you know, Brady, can you know he can and you saw the end of 2002 branches his favorite. And then you always have Troy Brown, you still have Christian for you. But I think for me, like when you saw Ronnie Harrison, because we all remember when Rodney hit Jerry Rice. And it was like, man, like, maybe that was a dirty hip, but who wouldn't want him on your defense? And when they signed him, I was like this. This is gonna be a game changer for me.

Joe Malkin:

And that's one of the guys who want right they bring Rodney Harrison in from San Diego. And I brought up the honestly there are so many easter eggs in this season for the New England Patriots. Looking back on them like this is amazing. I mean, but let's, let's seriously talk about this draft for a second because at the end of the season, they really had a lot of the same guys on that defense and it ended up being a really good defense. They had for all pro players, three pro bowlers, but in that draft prior to the oh three season, Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Bethel Johnson, Dan Cleco who ended up being kind of like kind of a role player assigned as Samuel Dan copan, who is probably one of the best offensive lineman that's ever played in New England. Here's a fun one for you guys. sixth round 200 and first, overall, two picks behind where Tom Brady was taken in 2000. They they picked Kliff Kingsbury, the current head coach of the Arizona Cardinals, I just I love this pick all the way around. And then they pick Telly Banta Kane in the as one of the other notable guys you know all those guys that I just mentioned minus Kliff. Kingsbury made the final roster going into the season. And it really like this roster was fun. We looked at oh two and it was exciting to see not a whole heck of a lot had changed from all one except for the loss of Drew Bledsoe the loss of Terry Glen. But they This was one of his bed this was one of Bill Belichick best drafts and it was one of his because of the the value he got for it knowing who he is overall. And it was it was great to see going into the season that there was an actual attempt to turn around a nine and seven season after a hangover from a Super Bowl win.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

I mean you guys sound super like happy. I definitely wasn't like I wasn't

Rob Kelly:

me right rayshawn was Boston sports team there he

Joe Malkin:

always brings us back to Earth.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Yeah, I'm not gonna I'll tell you why I wasn't happy in two years. We lose to Bledsoe and then his offseason literally a week before the damn season we lose oil Malloy so and I get it depart cells guy so I guess he wanted to get rid I understand that. But lo Malloy as we saw on America's game was beloved by his teammates. Yeah, kind of putting the cart before the horse but it leads into them getting just thrashed by buffalo big one but like we'll get into that but it's just like I couldn't that's great today drafted all those guys. I said salty. Samuel became awesome. Taiwan had a decent career here. Tell you better Kane was a decent role player. You know, Cleco as you say a kopen all those guys but, you know, I wasn't thinking about those guys coming in. I was thinking wow, we lose Malloy, we lose Bledsoe like, I was in the words of you know, one of our favorite wrestlers might bill Goldberg. I was wondering who's next? Yeah, it

Joe Malkin:

was so so just to touch on what Ray went on there about mostly about lawyer Malloy. You know, it's interesting because we know who bill is now. And I know we want to try and stay in this time capsule of the year that we're talking about but Laura Malloy was really that first guy that bill released thinking that that he was pretty much done and you can you can look at Terry Glenn and Drew Bledsoe and say similar things, but I think I think the Terry Glenn Drew Bledsoe moves, those were more because he knew and they ended up being later in their career build barcellos guys again, they were Bill Parcells dudes, that's, that's that was who drafted them. And I think that there is there was some of that animosity between the two bills. If you haven't watched that 3438 the two bills is that 3430 Yeah, it is. But Laura Malloy really was that first guy that he released before like as he thought he was done, and yeah, Ray I mean, bad move, right. Like, we all think A lot of the time were 14 year old 15 year olds we didn't know the difference we just love Lauren Malloy because holy crap Could you imagine lawyer Malloy and Rodney Harrison back there? I mean they would need to keep a couple ambulances on on on standby at all times.

Rob Kelly:

So I take I think that's the thing is like at this time if we think back to what it was in oh three is Bill Belichick wasn't looked at as this mad evil genius. You know what I mean? It was just like, Okay, you got lucky you caught fire with this Oh, one team Oh, to suck. And now you're cutting our captain like that, that that was such a big move, that it had people questioning who he was actually as an NFL coach going into that season,

Michael Marcangelo:

Tom Jackson from ESPN. Again, not a sponsor said that that move meant that his players hated him that he lost the locker room and Belichick never forgets that and we can talk about what he actually says later in the season. But if you think about that move, and you think about like when you do something like that right you need to have a good core around you a good core of coaches and I just want to let you guys know like on that defensive coaching staff in 2003 stop me when you do not recognize the name defensive coordinator Romeo canal, linebackers coach Rob Ryan. Inside linebackers coach pepper Johnson, defensive backslash secondary coach, Eric man, Jeanie, and the defensive assistant, Josh McDaniels. That's fact

Rob Kelly:

it's funny that like Bill Belichick coaching tree gets so much crap, because over the years, when you look back at it, the amount of coaches that have come out of New England, that that not just head coaches, I'm talking defensive coordinators, offensive coordinators, like they're sprinkled around the league, like you wouldn't even believe and I think this is just it's proof to this day. Half of those guys are still in the NFL. It's crazy

Joe Malkin:

Why players are the same way. Right? So it's kind of a lot of the times where he gets value for guys, and then they go get paid. And then a majority of the time those players don't pan out where they go. I mean, I think I think we can all agree that the oh three season lawyer Malloy had a pretty good year in Buffalo. He played he played pretty well. I think he was there for a few years. But those first two years in Buffalo, I remember him playing pretty well. So but you look at the coaching tree, and I think part of the reason why they get they get so much. And Brian table was a wide receivers coach on that on that team. So I mean, it just it's interesting to look at the tree and this is a whole different podcast and a whole different episode. But I think a lot of what I mean think about it, just to throw it out there maybe create some controversy. Controversy hot take the best coach to come out of the Bill Belichick tree, never even coached with Bill Belichick. And that's Mike Grable. So I mean, that's that's my opinion right now. But, you know, at this point in time, he he was surrounding himself like he did with his players. He was surrounding himself with the guys that made sense in the positions that they were in. I mean, pepper Johnson was around forever, right. Era command Genie, he ended up burning his bridges. Josh McDaniels went from being a defensive assistant to the offensive coordinator, and very likely the heir apparent head next head coach of the New England Patriots 17 years later, so

Rob Kelly:

but so I just want to touch on the thing that ended up being a trend before we get into the season. How much value was found in this draft? I know we already talked about it, but not only were these guys picked, but Eugene Wilson, who I think in my opinion, is one of the most underrated New England Patriots of all time. I loved Eugene Wilson. A second round, Dan Klecko fourth round a Santee Samuel fourth round, tele bed to Kane was picked in the seventh round. That's that's the trend that you saw, besides wide receivers that you saw from bill for the entire patriots tenure is is just churning out value after value after value in 2003 was no exception to that.

Joe Malkin:

Especially a guy like Tully Banta cain ticking I mean, he found value where most other teams wouldn't and he still does that today. And we've seen that now he goes based off their their their football IQ and their ability as a teammate and a football player rather than who they are at that position. And that's why Tom Brady worked out the way he did after 2000 and we'll see it in this season. I mean, Telly Banta Kane is still he's one of my favorite patriots of all time. Not one of the best patriots of all time, but it's one of my favorites, partly because of his name, but also because that guy was a grinder.

Michael Marcangelo:

Also, I don't know this, but I kind of know it. I feel like Al Davis hated the fact that we got Bethel Johnson because that man was fast. He couldn't he couldn't catch anything. But man, he could run a What was it like a four 440 I mean, he was the fastest guy I'd ever seen on Pinterest uniform.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, and and i think so if you look back to this 2018 we'll get into the season just a minute here. When it comes to That was wide receivers. This was before the wide receiver was this is one of my favorite Patriot League wide receiver records of all time. Deion branch. I love Deion branch, but my all time favorite patriots wide receiver is David Gibbons. That guy was a baller. I really liked David Givens You mean you mean Troy brown right? No, I love David Givens. 87 notre dame alum. Come on man David Givens made plays and he he made plays in those playoff games that we'll get to later that that are forgotten to this day. David Givens was a big time receiver. Tony. That's why he got big money in Tennessee. He didn't do anything there. But that's besides the point.

Joe Malkin:

Mike, just to confirm your your Bethel Johnson point of 437 40.

Michael Marcangelo:

Yeah, okay. So that's, that's that's an Oakland Raider. Sorry, Las Vegas Raider. But I mean, we

Joe Malkin:

can say it was back then. It's the Oakland zone.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, it was.

Joe Malkin:

Yeah, we're in 2003. We're not in 20. So let's stay in the time capsule and let's just call it like it. It's

Michael Marcangelo:

just to your point. Bobby, do you look at Dr. Branch Troy brown David Givens battle Johnson and David Patton. Well, that's your wide receiving Corps in 2003. That's good, man. That's and, and they're all young.

Rob Kelly:

And the best part about it is there wasn't a one and we'll get to that later. But that was the best part is like every game. It was five catches a piece. 75 yards and three touchdowns. You know what I mean? There wasn't like a number one wide receiver. No one wanted the ball. No one wanted this. And that was that mindset that those patriots had?

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Amazing. Amazing how that actually worked at one point.

Michael Marcangelo:

Yeah, I mean, you just there it was, it was like this is when Brady threw to the open guy and he didn't just pick a favorite and only focus on him. He had like these guys. I mean, besides Troy Browns were no names, right? And he made all of them because they all just go on the field ran their routes, and they were there.

Rob Kelly:

Okay, so that brings us right into the season here. We already talked about that bills game a little bit. It was a disaster from beginning to end.

Michael Marcangelo:

I want to I just want to tell you like the bills game Yes, Lord Malloy, he sacks Brady wants like it's 31 nothing we all know that. But this would be the last time that the Patriots would post this so 500 record for 145 games. It's wild. Why the stats the stats after these losses are crazy man

Rob Kelly:

obviously ever remembers. So they end up with the longest winning streak two games later as well. So not only that, but they end up with the longest winning streak in NFL history after this beginning of the season start so

Rayshawn Buchanan:

but as a fan. What the hell is going on? What are you what are you doing? What are you doing? How are we down 30 minutes and this is why and I've said this on the championship hangover. This is why I was right about Buffalo and I've said this to you john says you Mike I was like yo like I thought that buffalo was going to enter running division at some point because you know, they Energon Bledsoe and then the next year they got Malloy so like my anxiety was like on 1000 molds.

Unknown:

Nero's price

Rayshawn Buchanan:

man peerless price Wow, man rice you know, even though he did nothing in Atlanta, but but that's another pocket right? Exactly at all. He was priceless. Sorry, I had to make that Oh, like, Oh, wow. Try trying to be trying to like you, man. But no, um, is this like, Damn, like, it was crazy to see how they just pick this apart? And you know, you know, yeah, just just just live with this like, piece by piece. And I was like, dawg, like, it can't be 30 more points, but this is not Jim Kelly. This is not Thurmond Tom and this is not me. This is Smith. And what is wrong?

Joe Malkin:

So that's what I was gonna say was that they were they were less than 10 years removed. the Buffalo Bills were from a run where they went to four straight Super Bowls two of which they lost a Bobby's Dallas Cowboys. But this this was that point where this franchise was was established. And we're looking back on it now and saying this with a revisionist history right. 2020 2020 vision, but yeah, right. But this this was it this Redskins game was that turning point. And it's so funny to look back on these games and be like, wow, this is this is what really jumpstarted that?

Rob Kelly:

Yeah. And and it's funny too, because like after that week for game, it felt like 2002 all over again. You know what I mean? They felt like a mediocre football team who was going to be nine and seven like they had been for years. except for that one season. It felt like Pete Carroll. It felt like that entire thing all over again. It was like, Okay, did I need that really matter? Is Brady really the answer is belcheck really the answer? Like what's going on here? I don't know if you guys know this, but they were the fucking answer. So we have the Titans game. So then, that Titans game is a preview of the AFC Divisional game. That Titans team was very good. And this team beat them 38 to 30 like they put up 38 points after being held to 17 by the Redskins. Something happened in between that week. And from what I heard watching that America's game is the practice that entire week was the most physical practice they had. The entire time. I think Rodney Harrison said it rabl said it. And McGinnis said it that those were the toughest and most physical practices and their entire time in New England was that week.

Michael Marcangelo:

I mean, I think I think that they identified that week that like Steve McNair can't beat them. Right, Eddie George Ken. So because if you remember that game like Steve McNair pastor, I think like 360 yards at George didn't rush for 40. And they gave him the ball 15 times. So I think that practice was it. But like, if you look at that Titans team, and I know like McNair, Eddie George Derrick Mason, that's a really good offense. And obviously, I

Rob Kelly:

just Steve McNair. Its co MVP Steve McNair by the end of the season,

Michael Marcangelo:

yet, well, no, no, they should.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, they really did. And I think that this game kind of was, if you look at the scoring summary here, right? 38 to 30. And Brady threw one touchdown, you know what I mean? It's not like it's not like they got all these points just Whiting it up on the offensive scoreboard. And that really became the theme of the entire season. You look at the way this team won games. And it wasn't something where they were just an offensive powerhouse. They were just a defensive powerhouse. They won certain games scoring 30 points, they wanted one game score nine points, and two games scoring 12 one against the Quincy Carter wed Cowboys, which is a nightmare and the other against the Miami Dolphins in the snow. So it was like they didn't have a certain way they had to win games, which is why I think this team was so damn good. They were sound

Joe Malkin:

right they they figured it out. And Bobby, I think you'll like this this comparison, because it's really jumping back out at me. But they want a lot of their games and and really modeled their team around the early 90s. cowboys in a lot of ways at this time. It really was that way they didn't need a lot of yards. They just had to grind and push. I mean in this game against the Titans. I know we want to move on from this game. But this is really kind of a The best example of how this offens worked back then. I mean, Tyler had an interception for a touchdown. Brady throws for 219 and a touchdown. And then they get three rushing touchdowns one from Anton Smith and two from Mike cloud. So I wonder my cloud was one of my cloud. Exactly. I

Michael Marcangelo:

mean, it's a PC great, right? Yeah,

Joe Malkin:

yes. Anton Smith 16 480 and a touchdown. So really this this was it. This was how this team was going to win their games. And you're right Bobby, there was some games they put up 30 and other games they didn't need to because that defense knew how to play against every offense. And as Mike said, It started with Tennessee. You think about

Rob Kelly:

our actual IRA our it my bed. If you think about how actually good that secondary was a Santee Samuel Ty law, Rodney Harrison, Eugene Wilson. I love Don't hate on you. Eugene Wilson was a very good safety.

Michael Marcangelo:

Sure, but he's not Rodney Harrison. tylar Santee, Sam, but

Rob Kelly:

but nobody needs to be right but

Joe Malkin:

exactly. And Asante. Samuel wasn't assigned to Samuel after you'd love to know when when patriots either so

Rob Kelly:

you know, when he he saw, you know, happened with water his bill saw. I know this for a fact because I talked to Bill. Bill saw how good Eugene was on the practice field. And he absolutely knew that at that moment. He didn't need lawyer McCoy. He didn't need his contract. He didn't need his presence, because he knew he had Rodney Harrison. Phil's at now so that secondary man that built what became that patriots dynasty for the next few years.

Michael Marcangelo:

I think it's also important to note Ray sorry for cutting you off that bill asked lawyer to take a pay cut.

Rob Kelly:

He said no, he did say no. Right. And that and that's the precedent.

Michael Marcangelo:

No, he should he should have said no of course. But imagine like if he like there was no patriot way yet. Can you imagine? Like f will Jean Eugene Wilson or Malloy Ronnie Harrison sad to say no tie law sorry right ballgame.

Unknown:

No Yeah. Yeah, it was it yeah, it

Rayshawn Buchanan:

would have been ballgame. Um it's a slow

Rob Kelly:

it's a slow defensive backfield though. It was Harrison and it didn't

Rayshawn Buchanan:

matter at that time though because they were knocking us out so you know, so that that's that's just what it was but uh, you know, there's still your slogan Bob like that we can do it moment for me was actually the Miami game. So that's the game that is really even more so than the playoffs was really estim my mind because Brady threw an absolute dime to Troy brown to win that game in. You know, by that time Miami was already a House of Horrors like they got smacked 30 to 10 I think the they won a Super Bowl like they bought they lost the Miami already. So it was like man, okay, they're going on. In Miami, like, can they actually win in this? Like it's a low scoring game site, man. Like I think that that's the team that I like j feeler and you know Ricky Williams who was a monster.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, I'm really good though. J for Taylor.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Yeah. Jason Taylor kasamh Chris Thomas

Rob Kelly:

Madison. Yes.

Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Madison

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Sartain, all those guys that you know. So they were. It's funny because, you know, and fans that listen to there's a young Miami in early 2000s Yo, even Lj Marino, they were really good team. And they were the ones that ran amcs it wasn't us yet. It was Miami. So um, and in Buffalo did too for a while, but it was Miami and buffalo. Like, we just kind of took over the rest of the 2000s. But we're just talking about all three. But yeah, that Miami game is when things changed a lot. And I was like, man, okay, we went down and over time. You know, it was an ugly game, they found a way to win. And I was like, okay, maybe they have something here. And they just went on, they just went on an absolute tear going forward. So

Rob Kelly:

so so that game was big, because I'm looking at this right now. And that game ended a ofor 13 skid in Miami and September and October, and it was their first win in Miami and six straight visits there. So so that I feel like that was something that Brady did need to get off his back. And the Patriots needed to get off their back that they knew that they could wind down there. So yeah, I'm with you on that one for sure. That though that game as well. Richard Seymour blocks the kick in I don't know if it was overtime or the end of the game.

Michael Marcangelo:

It was Orlando Maurice ended the game kick right in the game. Yeah. olindo Mari

Rob Kelly:

that's a name.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

He was also a really good kicker at the time. So he was Yeah, you

Rob Kelly:

know, the rest of the league is a great line to I'm reading right here wouldn't see more blocked it. It was at pro player stadium because back then football and baseball teams used to share stadiums, everyone I don't know for all our young listeners out there that used to be a thing. But he goes, go Marlins as he blocks the kick and pro player stadium after I believe the Marlins have won the World Series this year, right. 2003 Yes, yeah. So

Joe Malkin:

that's great. And what's awesome is that that stadium is still the stadium. They play it now. And it's gone through 15 name changes since rock right?

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Yeah. I mean, is it? No, no, I lived there. It was, it was hard rock. But it was it was awesome. You know, we get into a situation where bill kind of creates his evil genius scenario. In a Denver game, when he talked when he does, uh, you know, you know, the latest lambda game, they're up by one, you know, they take a safety to go up to 26 I'm going to let Denver grow up 26 to 23 with two minutes and 46 seconds left. You know, some of the players are like male you know, what are you doing? You know, they get the ball back, Brady Brady comes back does what he's been doing well, does what he ends up doing really his whole career but you know, wasn't doing a whole lot then but you know, that Mastiff will come back and wins.

Rob Kelly:

It's funny, that moment, I feel like was the first moment where New England fans went, alright, I fucking am bill we trust like, What? What I can't believe he just did that, like no one. No one in their right mind would ever give up safety on purpose just to get better field position. And then and then not only does it work, but it literally wins them the game. One of the wildest plays in patriots history. It's, you remember how much controversy that was about it that people were like, was it on purpose? Was it not on purpose? Like no one knew and and Bill was just like, yeah, it was on purpose. Like, wait, what do you think we're doing here?

Michael Marcangelo:

The opposition. Like, they pin them back on the next try, they forced him to punch Brady throws that touchdown, the givens and then isanti Samuel picks the guy off at the at the end of the game. I mean, it's literally like that's how he wrote it. But it's baffling to me that Belichick would write it that way. Like there's not one other coach in the league at that time. That would say, yeah, let's let's just take the safety pin him back. Because that's, and he did it and it worked.

Joe Malkin:

situational football, right, and situational correctness. That's why but that's the confidence he had in his teams and how you knew it was on purpose at the time. I actually remember this exact moment is a Monday night game was it was a Monday night game. And I remember Ken Walter standing there and he didn't even put his hands up. Yeah, he just stood there like a statue and let the ball go over his head. And I remember who was the long snapper was it Lonnie Givens at the time? Or Lonny Paxton? Paxton? And Lonnie Paxton. This was the greatest snap of all time. He snapped it right off the upright. Like Of course, it had been practiced. It had been scripted, and they were just waiting for a moment to use it. And you're absolutely right, Mike and belcheck still does this to this day. I mean, we're in 2020. We just finished week eight of the NFL season, and it was the same thing against the bills last week while they lost. It was Everything was just written up the way they expected to do it, and they just didn't finish the execution. And this is how they did it in 2003 and beyond. And it was amazing to watch at the time. And it. And that's what's great about Belichick is that he takes these calculated risks. I'm talking in a 2003 vacuum, he took these calculated risks that just worked. And they they made sense, but maybe not necessarily at the time. I feel like they work less now than they did that if I'm being honest Now.

Rob Kelly:

Now. Now I feel like he's gotten to the point where he actually is that evil scientist where he does things you're like, what is what?

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Why? Yeah, well, you don't have that set. When you don't have the same town that you did, then you can you can make those sounds No, but you can make those type of decisions. Like you say, when you trust a defense, you can trust people you can trust what you see more you could trust 1010 of Washington, you can tell you can trust you know, say Samuel so it was Roman, Roman Pfeiffer. So it was so many guys on that team, that one had been there. And they really would just dollars on defense, like, some of the dollars that he had recently on all the teams or they chose to opt out. So it's a little different right now. So, um,

Rob Kelly:

my bad my bad for bringing up right now. You know?

Rayshawn Buchanan:

We're both in the same boat. You know, your team sucks. My team sucks. It's okay. It's just like, but like, at that time, it was just so easy, or not so easy, but it was easier. I feel like to make those decisions knowing that Okay, I got these dogs behind me. And if we if we're not going to get past the 50 on this defense if we if we dropped the right place to close out this game, and they did in many cases, not just that year but going forward.

Michael Marcangelo:

Also, Bobby, do you remember that the game right after this momentous occasion. It was it was the seven in two cowboys Bill Parcells, cowboys. Yes, I do. Devin into patriots. You know, Parcells is a great coach Quincy Carter is not a great quarterback. But they were they were they're a great 12 nothing.

Rob Kelly:

Do you know I was at this game. I was at

Michael Marcangelo:

the Cowboys game

Rob Kelly:

291 yards that game. Do you know why they won that lost that game because Jason Witten threw a shovel pass to a patriots defender. He literally threw a pass to him. I'll never forget it. It was it was a pass over the middle. I was watching and he caught the ball. And just like

Unknown:

he go, but yeah,

Rob Kelly:

that that next game, I think showed that they were because the Cowboys were actually good that year. And so we're so we're the Titan. So we're all these teams that they were beating and they weren't just beating them. But they were beating them in a way that you're like, oh man, like this team is something and they just kept doing it to like a bad Texans team. They have to go to overtime, but they still win. And then this is my choice for for the moment, at least in the regular season. That Colts game was just unbelievable with that goal line, Stan. I mean, not only was this the start of our domination of Peyton and get it in his head, but that was the most amazing guy and Stan I've seen and still to this day, one of the best gold stands I've seen.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

So let me tell you how I caught a cramp. Because I was early. I was standing up like China like act like I'm on defense with William again. It's when I play happen. And I like jumped off the couch and I'm like, oh, no sugar, honey iced tea. Like, my legs are crap. And my late My legs are cramping up because I was just so I was so into that play because I couldn't stand paying Manning. And actually like I want to get on it. I was waiting for you to talk about this game. Tony, Tony Dungy and Peyton Manning screws through screw screw screw y'all. Screw y'all. Hey, I said what I said screw through them. Okay, um, Tony Dungy by the way you have great books, but screw

Joe Malkin:

he only came up with one of the best defenses of all time to Tampa to but it's fine,

Rayshawn Buchanan:

right? It's fine. But you know, then they still didn't win sight of Hey, shocking how you doing? Man? But a

Rob Kelly:

king right? Okay. Damn. Okay. really bringing it back to

Rayshawn Buchanan:

the vault. You know? Trump Canada, why can't we bring up Shaun king but no, um, that that game and they like say, you know when we're gonna listen. If that was that was Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis. Um, I don't know what was on the team at the time. Like, if that was the same thing and you guys were it was the other way around. You just told them guys the fault. Oh, you know why? Cuz it's called gamesmanship. You're being a competitor. You're trying to win the game. And it's not cheating. Is it? Is it is it lousy? Okay, I guess but either way we won. And guess what, at that time, and fans that are under 20 or maybe 25 that you love paying meaning you didn't you didn't think that you know no will ever be him because you saw what happened before. protein. So what happened in 2015? I am telling you, we owned Peyton Manning for the first eight or nine years of his career. That is not that is not an opinion. That is an f a c t, that is a fact. Not opinion. We own him. So I'm telling you so yes, so we own Peyton Manning. We own a team. Okay, so number 12 was that guy we? And we owned paying money. He couldn't do anything in ours. He couldn't do anything RCA dome, he can do nothing to Lucas Oil Stadium. He couldn't do anything until like, he couldn't do anything at the Pro Bowl. He can do nothing when it came to just knowing when guys we ran. Pay him Manning. That's a fact not opinion.

Joe Malkin:

I'm one of the I'm one of the best one of the best.

Rob Kelly:

painters.

Joe Malkin:

I'm one of the I'm one of the biggest, I'm one of the biggest peyten fans, you're gonna meet, especially in New England. I mean, I think Peyton Manning is arguably the greatest quarterback of all time. I know. I you know what Tom Brady might be proving me wrong this

Unknown:

year. Back play? Yeah,

Joe Malkin:

sure. Well, but I mean, we've asked the question before, right. And I've asked this to you guys before if you were if you were hiring an offensive coordinator, and you had to choose between Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, who are you picking hate Manny Manny? Because because he's a coach Tom Brady is a player Peyton Manning was one of those guys in the early 2000s. He was really calling his own offense. So he was he was doing what he felt he needed to do. And unfortunately, Bill Belichick had much more defensive experience and that's part of the reason why they did own Peyton Manning and you know, we'll get to the point in this where where he didn't and we talked about it on the last episode of the podcast about Peyton Manning finally overcoming Tom Brady in 2006. But in this game, this final drive by by the the Colts it looked it looked like the Colts were just gonna drive down the field again. And and score. I mean you had and here are certainly some names for you. I mean, Peyton Manning to Edgerrin James Peyton Manning to reggie wayne for 13 yards. Dominic Rhodes, left tackle for nine yards. Edmund James, the middle for three Peyton Manning Marvin Harrison for nine yards. They're inside the 10 yard line. They get the they get down to the to its first end goal on the two and it's like this is it. I knew that we're getting it I remember. And then and then what do they do? They they hand the ball off to edge and James maybe this is why Seattle didn't give the ball to marshawn Lynch. But they give the ball to edge and James twice. And then Peyton Manning throws an incomplete incomplete pass to Aaron Morehead after calling their third timeout and then they give it to Edmund James again. And then this is the one where rayshawn was up on his feet down in a two point stance like William against because Willie McGinest came through there like a bat out of hell. And shut down Andrew and James and your Bobby, you're absolutely right. This was the point of the season where it was like, man, they're gonna do this. Right, exactly. And and this was the moment that you knew that that defense was different to you know what I mean, to be able to make that go line stop, literally two yard line, four chances to get in the zone, and they could not do it.

Rob Kelly:

So a story coming at this was on the America's game. Apparently William again is coming into this week was just an absolute savage and practice every single day waiting into this game. He was at the facility, six in the morning, every single day, Rodney Harrison walked up to him on Sundays like bro, you're about to have a game? And Damn, was he right? Because that release off that line was maybe one of the fastest I've ever, maybe not ever, I always do that. One of the fastest I've seen

Joe Malkin:

ever, ever. So what but but this has already been brought up but but we have to bring it up again because it plays into the rest of the regular season. And it plays into the playoffs, especially when they take on Tennessee again, and have to narrowly get by them. But one of the other things that not only along with talent, like rayshawn said they had the talent back then on both sides of the ball, but especially on defense. Now they just try and piece it together a lot more with that IQ. But they had a they had a motivator like Bill bill, for some reason could get through to those guys back in the early 2000s. I mean, I feel like football has changed so much since you know 2004 2005 until now, which really isn't a big span. But the guys you had playing for the Patriots in the early 2000s. I mean, you had Brian Cox who was an absolute maniac in the locker room before the game and

Rob Kelly:

the neck pads that he had. Oh yeah,

Joe Malkin:

that's patently and you had guys like William McGinnis who Mike rabl you had these Richard Seymour you had these guys that we say their names now, and we just know that Bill Belichick had a knack for firing these guys up. And and those are the guys that are never going to say anything bad about Bill Belichick. You may not get that from the guys that have played for him in the last 10 years or so. But things change, and that's fine. I mean, we got what we got out of the out of the franchise in the last 20 years. And in this year of oh three, you really just had belcheck getting into their ear and saying hey, we got to get this done because this is our goal and and he made those guys believe it and this was just one of the biggest examples of William McGinnis against the Colts where it really was the catalyst of bills Bill's got these guys and and it's there's no stopping this train.

Michael Marcangelo:

I think that this is the last game that and in probably the next couple of years that the Patriots could play underdogs right because Peyton Manning in that offense in the cult like that they were they were the team the AFC and they'll take doesn't have many opportunities left in his arsenal to to ramp his team up and say listen, they're counting you out. Nobody thinks you can beat them. If they get within like the 2010 or the five they're gonna score on you. And again, it said not that's just not gonna happen today. And this game, this game just catapulted them to the next stratosphere.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah. And to go back to this line I completely agree with that that this was this was the point and it made like I said made that defense just a they were so special man. They just did things that that no defense that we had seen into anyone had done before. And what made them so special why they were so perfect for Bill, I believe is that they were just football minds. You look back at who was on this defense, Roman Pfeiffer all time veteran, you know Willie McGinest. We have Mike Grable, Richard Seymour, like Ted Washington. These guys were just ballplayers. And they had that football mind. And they were the epitome of that patriot way. But so after this game, it launches them. And they finish 14 into that this team was the favorite going into the playoffs. But to me, I mean, looking back at this season, they didn't have the most impressive 14 to two season I've ever seen. And like, Did you guys going into it actually think that a bird of favorites and that this was going to happen going into these playoffs?

Rayshawn Buchanan:

I have to be honest, like, even though they went 14 to two. And I said that I think I said this about how I felt about Tennessee and in a previous show. I was beyond nervous to face Tennessee in the playoffs like is one thing which you did in the regular season. But I also remember the year before when we needed to beat them to make sure that we got to the playoffs. And they gave it to us and they beat us 24 to seven. Um, so I was like man like that they are motivated again, even though they was coming into New England. It was like a I'm not so sure that we can beat them. Now everything's like cool. Right, exactly. But you know which missiles right, but no, but you know, but yeah, that's that's the thing though. It was crazy. I thought I thought Tennessee was actually going to beat us at the time

Michael Marcangelo:

I did. Here's what I'll say. Like, like, I didn't know if the Patriots could score 30 points. But I knew that that the defense wouldn't allow 30 points. So like, if that makes sense. Probably. I don't. I didn't. If they got into a gunfight. I don't know if they're gonna win. But I, I think like all things being equal. That was the best defense that I've ever seen the Patriots have. And I was just by that time by that Titans team, regardless of whether it was air McNair and he was co MVP. I did not think he could come up here and put up 400 yards, four touchdowns and 40 points. And and we were kind of right,

Rob Kelly:

right and so to go back to what Joe said way earlier so you guys compare I did this on the show the other night, get out of here, which you can find on our on our podcast page. It'll be in the show notes. Tom Brady had a very Troy Aikman like season this year. All right. He wasn't. I can't believe I'm about to say this. He wasn't that impressive. You know what I mean? He he had 23 touchdowns, 12 picks. He had 60.2 completion percentage. But he had 3620 yards. And it's not like this team actually had that star running back. We had antwon Smith who got what, 689 yards that year. Something like that.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Wait, timeout, timeout, timeout. I thought 23 touchdowns was impressive, though.

Michael Marcangelo:

How can we walk right into that?

Rob Kelly:

I did. I did. Yeah.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

It was fine. Now what's different vi 23 touchdowns at 26 I'm like, you know what got that's a tournament like season, but 2012 that's not bad. That's almost to the one.

Rob Kelly:

But so that just shows how good that defense was though because it they didn't have that offense they didn't have and it's missing the backfield to back up. Only 23 touchdowns from the quarterback. You know what I mean? Like, that's how good that defense was.

Joe Malkin:

Well, sure. And and they had an offensive line that had been built around Drew Bledsoe. So they you knew that Brady was going to stay up? Right, right. You had Anton Smith, who was I mean, he was an above average running back in the NFL. He got he got the job done.

Rob Kelly:

He was if he wasn't over the hill in 2001 and 2003. He was absolutely over the hill. He was not he was not that good in 2003.

Joe Malkin:

No, he wasn't. But he got the job done. And that's and that's fine. But yeah, I mean, with the defense that they had, they had the four top receivers who really like as you said earlier, there was no number one. And they just they made it work. And all the pieces clicked, everything went together. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. It really was and just put everything together to make it work.

Rob Kelly:

So that brings us right into the playoffs against the Titans just set up how big this game was. Just in case everyone doesn't remember this Titans team was maybe the best team in the NFL. This team was really really good. And this game. I don't know I was there. It's pretty cool story. I was sleeping. My neighbor came over knocked my job was like, Hey, you want to go to the Patriots playoff game today? So absolutely. It's only gonna be negative 10 degrees outside coldest game in Foxborough history. So to breathe so nice. So you see you saw it that this game was so cold, guys. I'll never forget it that there were people getting beers, people getting hot chocolates, and they were bringing it back to their seats. And by the time they go back to the seat, that thing was frozen, frozen solid. This was the coldest game. This was the coldest I've ever been in my entire life. I was walking around like goddamn. Like, in the Christmas story.

Joe Malkin:

You You are every layer, every layer closet. And it was amazing because of course I'm sitting there looking at these guys down on the field. And there's offensive linemen with short sleeves on for two grand I mean, it was fine because they're running around there. They're getting sweaty. Even in Ford it was four degrees with a 16 degree Windchill?

Rob Kelly:

Yeah. Or negative six negative 16. Yep.

Joe Malkin:

Which which is absolutely amazing. And it was one of the coldest games in the Titans patriots in Foxborough has given us some of the wildest weather in the history of this.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Some of the Wilder scores 250-657-5959

Rob Kelly:

There we go.

Joe Malkin:

Wow. And in Oh, seven. And so I mean, yeah, but but going into this game, you couldn't count them out. Of course, as patriots fans were thinking, Well, you know, it's Tennessee coming up here, but it can get pretty damn cold in Nashville, too. They get some pretty nasty storms down there too. But it doesn't get this cold. But, you know, I always I always found that kind of funny in a rivalry where they're like, well, Miami doesn't have to play in this weather all the time. And it's like yeah, but these guys have have played elsewhere than than just Miami. So but I mean, if this was cold, I mean in 68,000 people in the stadium and it not only not only was it cold this was a night game.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, no, playoffs. Yeah, yeah, this is this is one of my favorite memories of all sports. Honestly, this game because it was my favorite game. It was probably my top three games I've ever been to the the feeling and I was right behind. So we'll get to how it ends. But I was right behind the goalpost were finitary ends up kicking. Probably the most difficult kick in NFL history. All right.

Joe Malkin:

Yeah. 42 in the snow against the Raiders.

Rob Kelly:

4046 and negative 13 degree weather. That thing was like kicking a goddamn stone. You know how never kick the stone. Ask him what kick he's it. He says it ever I forget where he said it. But I saw an interview where this is the kick he's most proud of? Is this kick. I swear on my life. Go look it up. Hey, I woke up right now.

Joe Malkin:

Well, most proud of most proud of me being the most difficult doesn't that that's not necessarily a correlate, but I understand. I don't want to disparage your point. I understand your point. It's It was a kick that not only sent them to the AFC Championship that year, but it was in cold weather at home against a team you struggled against but but shut down defensively in the regular season. And I mean voluntary He was nails this was the point of his career where he was just nails

Michael Marcangelo:

if you're gonna if you remember like the entire like all pregame for the for this particular game like it was like it's cold This is going to be a low offense game it's going to be just have to run the ball. First scoring the game was a 40 yard touchdown pass from Brady to Bethel Johnson Mm hmm. Somehow fire in man that's that's what that's what Bill and Brady did right at that point in time. Oh, everyone knows we're gonna run it was aired out

Joe Malkin:

just go out there. And it's so funny because bill would tell his guys even back then, you know, don't don't read the papers. Don't listen to the to the news. Don't listen to sports radio. But what did he do? He read the papers. He listened to the radio, he did all those things. And then when people like Mike just said, when people would say Oh, it's cold, it's gonna be tough to do this, it's gonna be tough to do that bill would do exactly what they were saying was too tough to do to send a message of like, I'm gonna do what my football team needs to do, regardless of the conditions in order to win the football game. And that and that showed and that was also because he had faith in every single player on that active roster. You have a 53 man active roster, you have a 46 game 46 man game day roster and he trusted every single man on that roster every single Sunday to come out and do the job winner lose. Do your job.

Rob Kelly:

It ended up being the the saying of this team for years to come. And out of that a Terry. I know he gets a lot of credit, but I don't know if he gets a nuff credit for this entire playoff run. Because not only did he win this game, but he also single handedly won the next game besides the defense he ended up putting he five for five and fuel goes against the coast and AFC Championship game. Yeah, I mean, come on.

Joe Malkin:

In another cold game in Foxborough, I mean 32 degrees, right. But and it's a it's an afternoon game. There was some snow. This game. This game was gross.

Michael Marcangelo:

This is what Peyton crumbled and threw for and just this is the Manning face. Remember, this is like he's just doing one of these on the sidelines because you can't see this at home. But tylar picks it off three times. Ronnie Harrison, once. I mean, this was the CO MVP. And he came up here. This is also this game led to the rule changes in the NFL.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, I remember that. That's the five yard rule. The five yard

Michael Marcangelo:

contact rule because they were just hammering Wayne Harrison and Dallas Clark right off the line. They didn't have a shot at it.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Right so postle technical guy emotional was like you know, we want simply an offensive game who wants again to flow and be smooth and not nasty and grimy like it is up in Foxborough. So in order to cater to the Manning Boy, you know, we're going to make sure that you know has got to get her free volley so he could so he could throw 49 touchdowns the next channel for

Joe Malkin:

budget but changing changing the subject a little bit to what we could go on with with an entirely different podcast. I mean, isn't that necessarily not necessarily a bad thing? I mean, particularly Buddha do that i i agree with your sentiment and what you said to wholeheartedly but playing devil's advocate of, you know, his his golden boys in the league when they wanted to, you know, again, another whole podcast, but something that Major League Baseball has a terrible job of, of doing. It's finding, recognizing, and finding and executing who the golden boy is in the NFL. But but that was that was what he recognizes that, hey, you know, we have to alter these rules to fit what we want in the league. And yeah, it sucks. It's always suck because Mike has said it on many occasions that the Patriots actions throughout the years on and off the field has really shaped the way the NFL rulebook has has evolved over the years. And that's okay, because there was a long period of time when the NFL rulebook really got stale in the 70s and 80s. And it didn't change much. So getting into the 90s and 2000s. And having this happen was fine. The nice thing was is it didn't change until after this game. And our and the defensive backs on this team one of the best defensive back defensive backfield in New England Patriots history shut down two of the best way to have the best wide receivers and one of the best tight ends of the time. basically shut that down in their tracks. And your and this was another example Bobby, of the Patriots winning a game through all three phases of the football game, where something that they haven't been able to do lately of Oh, wait, the offense isn't working. Okay, let's let's lean on the defense a little more until the special teams that they have there. They might have to be the ones that go out and score the points and and the Patriots were great at doing this. And they did In the Superbowl 36 they didn't need to score a touchdown at the end of the game against the Rams to win. They just needed to get into a position to put Adam finitary or whoever the kicker may have been it just happened to be monetary into a position where he could win that ballgame and that's that's what they did for these at least these first three Super Bowls.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah, and that's that's the biggest thing from that coast game that I remember is that was the Patriots didn't play great that game you know what I mean? Like on one side of the ball on one side, right on offense, they they were they were piss poor, actually. I mean, you look at Brady's numbers that day. 2237 237 yards, a touchdown on a pic. All right, so it definitely wasn't Brady that one in this game. It was Adam finitary. And that defense and that's that was the trend of defense.

Michael Marcangelo:

I mean, I love just like you do, dude, but if I live

Joe Malkin:

yet, but if Tyler doesn't pick Manning off three times, and Ronnie Harrison doesn't pick him off once those are those are conceivably touchdowns. That's 28 points. It doesn't matter if monetary kicks five Phil goes for 15 points. Well, and that's and that's where the offense slacked off. Right. So yeah, then then we have to talk about how the defense had to pick up the slack from the offense and the special teams had to become the scoring point of this patriots team. So it's fine I mean five or five Yeah, I mean it's a great feat because against the the Browns in the regular season game that finished nine three in favor of the Patriots infinitary actually missed a kick in pretty good weather he went three for for that day. So for him to up his game and go five for five and be perfect on the day. What

Michael Marcangelo:

I want to point out that I think this that this game and any other game that they ever played against Peyton Manning, were the only times after 2001 when when the entire country was actually rooting for the Patriots because by this point, the whole belly check thing had and and the winning all year. They America loves an underdog, right? The Patriots were no longer the underdog until Peyton Manning was in the picture. And they everyone hated to see the fact that to your point show that that the NFL was catering and changing the rules and making sure that people are that Peyton would always get there I don't care about rule changes. I care about the why. Right. And the why was to get paid in the ring. Everyone knew it.

Rob Kelly:

That is what that is right. It wasn't ya know, that was that was that that was the take down 100%

Rayshawn Buchanan:

and we and it still didn't happen right away because like the next year he does a great they lose does great the next year as a great game against Tampa Bay when they come back on one of the largest Monday Night Football comebacks they lose so you know it didn't happen right away. But But no,

Joe Malkin:

no. But you know what's great is you Bobby mentioned what Tom Brady's numbers were in this game against the Colts. You realize that three years later, Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl MVP with almost identical numbers to that. Yeah, so I mean, what it's it that's it comes down to the what the game at hand is for for that game, whether it's regular season, playoffs, Superbowl, whatever it is, and no Brady didn't have a good day. The defense played incredible Bill Belichick figured out how to stop Peyton Manning. And then he asked his kicker on five occasions to figure it out and put some points on the board to win this game. And that's exactly what they did.

Michael Marcangelo:

That's it. I have to ask you a question. You're the host, right? But you as the host. You don't you don't get to get asked questions a lot. After this game. Did you know that they were gonna win the Superbowl?

Rob Kelly:

Yes. Because Peyton was their obstacle. You know what I mean, getting that AFC Peyton was the guy you had to beat because I don't know if everyone remembers how good that Colts team was coming into that game. They mad that reggie wayne Marvin Harrison doubt like dad is the best wide receiver core that Peyton ever had. You know what I mean? Like that those two guys on the same offense and the fact that we were able to shut them down. That was it. You know what I mean? You knew that was it. And especially because of who I don't want to say I was cocky at the time, but of who they were going to end up going against.

Joe Malkin:

Well, and just real quick on the whole peyten thing. And then the NFL wanting to get him a Super Bowl. I mean, he was the Golden Boy right? Like he can't he comes out of the draft in 1998. It comes out of Tennessee, the number one pick, they go three and 13 his first season, which is fine, it is what it is. And then from that point on, they drafted around him. They built a team. He was basically calling the shots on that offense. He was calling the pitches right. So he he goes out and creates one of the best regular season teams of the era. And and, and they didn't write paper champions write it and people love that. Bobby you just said it. People love the Patriots because they went 14 and two in the face of adversity. coming off a nine seven season that two years ago they had they had offered Jon Gruden Raiders they had beaten bill cowers Steelers, then they go out and beat Mike Martz Rams. And it's like, well these guys don't care. They're going rogue. Let's follow this team. And then they love to see him beat the Colts league hated to see him beat the Golden Boy because Tom Brady wasn't the Golden Boy, it was Peyton Manning. Nobody cared about Tom Brady at this point. They still didn't give a shit about who he was. And that was great for the Patriots.

Rob Kelly:

That was awesome for the Patriots. And then Ray, what did the Patriots do the Colts? maybe be

Rayshawn Buchanan:

a? That's right.

Rob Kelly:

That's right. And never go into the game. No, I have one last question about all this. Is this the last time that the America routed for the Patriots? No, no. Is this the last time? Yes, no, no,

Michael Marcangelo:

it is right. Not No, no, no. It's the last time up until I would say like recent errors. But I think like between like, oh 10304 this was it? Because I don't think in my estimate, or until next year against the Colts. If you take Peyton Manning out of the equation. This was the last time because the only time that the pages were underdogs in the early 2000s was it were against Peyton Manning. And especially after this year, again, I don't want to like go into next year. When when you have a league that changes the rules, literally just to make sure that there one guy in there one team can advance to the round that he could never advance to and he still can't do it. America likes to root against that person. And they did. And the pert and the team playing against Peyton Manning, when it always mattered was us and he could never beat us.

Joe Malkin:

But But this goes to Mike's point of you know the they really only rooted for the Patriots against Peyton Manning I think oh four was really the last point where they they did because I think after oh four the Patriots as an organization got a little cocky. And then seven, they became the villains because now they have three Super Bowls in four years

Michael Marcangelo:

always like they became the Yankees. We should Yankee fans

Joe Malkin:

and I and I'm okay with that. I really I've come to accept that over the last 20 years. But I think oh four was really the last time America routed for the Patriots because they went up against an Eagles team that just kept trying to get there. And they finally did and then they lost and everybody hated the Eagles. But it was Andy Reed it was Andy Reed and Donovan McNabb. But again, we'll get to that when we get to it. But what let's get back to this one routed for the Patriots against the Colts because they wanted to see Peyton lose. It was kind of New England Super Bowl before the Super Bowl. And then they go in against this Carolina Panthers team which I'll let you get into it. And I don't think there was as much excitement around this. But there certainly wasn't Foxborough, that's for sure.

Rob Kelly:

Oh, absolutely. Now, I remember this Carolina team. I don't know if you guys remember but the year before they were atrocious. There were 115 was that it was the year before there were 115. Right?

Michael Marcangelo:

Yeah, that was chosen 1001.

Rob Kelly:

Right. Because we beat them to make them one of the 15 Okay, I remember that. No, but so they bring in no name quarterback Jake Delhomme, this guy and there are two dynamic running backs of time. Throw some names here to Shawn Foster and Steven Davis. Steven, those two guys brought them to the Super Bowl. Steve Smith on the outside who will play a big factor in the Super Bowl. was a dynamic playback playmaker, maybe one of the top five wide receivers in the league at the time. Right.

Michael Marcangelo:

Yeah,

Rayshawn Buchanan:

I mean, you know, yeah, yeah. Who said Muhammad, Ricky Paul, Ricky Pro.

Michael Marcangelo:

Jermaine Wiggins was on this team. Yeah. Oh, he

Rob Kelly:

was That's right. Yeah, I love what you but so this going into this game, I think we were all very confident that they were going to win and I don't think we expected to see maybe one. I don't think we expected to see one of the best Super Bowls that the Patriots Well, they played some great Super Bowls. But to me, this was my I to this day. I still watch this game randomly on YouTube late at night. I'll toss this game on because it was just such a fun game man. And you didn't know it was gonna be based off the first quarter. First Quarter roll history worse and worse fourth quarter

Joe Malkin:

and the Patriots come in favored by seven in this game and we all loved it because at hockey Lee was the referee in this game.

Rob Kelly:

With this was this before he was jacked at all. This was

Joe Malkin:

right during huge now.

Rob Kelly:

He's always been at Hercules. Yeah, okay.

Joe Malkin:

Yeah. Now his son is an NFL official, and he's just as good but he's not as jacked. So we don't give Steve as much credit as we did, ed. But yeah, this first quarter is 00 it was really awful. It was just absolutely awful. And I remember watching the beginning of this game. It was they were playing in Houston, because the Texans had just started their franchise two years before that they wanted to get a Super Bowl down in Houston. They had to play Final

Rob Kelly:

Four was that year that too? I think,

Joe Malkin:

yeah, they had to play with the roof close because the weather outside wasn't great. And it just it was a weird feeling around this game. And and once the game started, I don't know how you guys felt but it didn't feel as I didn't feel as confident as I thought because it was like who's Jake del homie? Like, Who's this guy? And and Jake Delhomme ended up showing the entire country who he was in this game.

Rob Kelly:

Yes, he did it. It started. Right. I believe it was the first play the second quarter, right? We're Delhomme hooked up with Steve Smith on just an absolute dime. And from that moment, you knew that this was going to be a game. My favorite moment going into the Superbowl de is the fact not favorite moment. Best nickname of the Super Bowl. Rod smart.

Unknown:

He hates Panther Yeah, yeah,

Rayshawn Buchanan:

but no, but this this is the thing, right? I thought this was gonna be a blowout.

Michael Marcangelo:

Yeah. And

Rayshawn Buchanan:

I was like, oh, like it cuz it wasn't good. Even though you know paying money. I couldn't stand him. Like, we know that was the standard and not just an AFC but the NFL is almost like we don't matter we face this little boy is over it we should win by lose 10 points. And you know, so we're going through his back and forth and I'm like, are they really gonna lose these boys? Like, are you gonna lose eight alone? Are you gonna lose it Assad Foster and Steven Davis like, Is that is that going to happen? Like, is this really going to happen is Ricky for we're going to get his dynasty started tonight at? Yeah, I'm talking about a couple years ago. So I'm just like, Whoa, like, this is ridiculous. This This was my favorite syllable. And so there's another one that comes on, you know, you know, when you have so many you could talk about it. But yeah, you're still one behind on catch up. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, I know. I know. I'm sorry. You

Rob Kelly:

guys wonder why I troll you about the Patriots.

Rayshawn Buchanan:

I just want to say like listen, listen, they did definitely agree. So stop it. But anyways, um, no, but this this turned out to be a phenomenal game, but I didn't I didn't think it was gonna be as close as it was. I definitely thought it was gonna be a blowout. But, um, that fourth quarter alone was better than most super bowl games. Yeah. To be honest. Yeah.

Michael Marcangelo:

First Quarter I was like, You know what, this is just gonna be a dogfight like it should have been a blob but they don't have it second quarter like Alright, here we go. All right. This is it. Now we're getting into it. We got the Brady two branch or five yards. We had Steve Smith. You have the David Givens five yard like it's going well. Third quarter was bad. At the end of the third quarter. I'm thinking maybe the best thing that I'm going to see if this game is Janet Jackson's nipple, but then the fourth quarter went off the effing chain dude. Yeah, I mean, this guy's 37 points. 30.

Rob Kelly:

Jackson, yeah, we can't. We can't just brush by that with like, one. That's that's really what everyone thought though is that was going to be the moment of this Super Bowl. Whatever it

Rayshawn Buchanan:

was, the moment for me

Rob Kelly:

was was was the What did they say? The wardrobe malfunction, wardrobe malfunction when when Justin Timberlake literally just hold that. Notice

Joe Malkin:

how he's a second. Notice how he never gets anything about the Superbowl. everybody's like, oh, Janet, Janet Jackson's nipple wardrobe malfunction. And, and everybody remembers Joe. But nobody says hey, Justin Timberlake, why'd you paint the pasty? Well, if Hey,

Rob Kelly:

john, if he had a wardrobe malfunction, I promised you that we'd be talking about it. So

Michael Marcangelo:

yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be but I understand what you're saying. Like, yeah,

Joe Malkin:

I mean, it's pretty attractive. And let's just be honest here. I mean,

Michael Marcangelo:

that that third quarter was so bad. Was it really was

Joe Malkin:

this quarter football game?

Rob Kelly:

It was all the scoring two plays in the second and fourth quarter data.

Michael Marcangelo:

Do you remember the fourth quarter the 85 yard touchdown pass to motion Mohammed?

Rayshawn Buchanan:

Oh, my Oh, yeah. We can say the first score was what happened with that was the first quarter but

Rob Kelly:

yeah, that's a so this fourth quarter, I believe is the highest scoring quarter and Superbowl history. Am I correct? It was a total of 3038 points. 37 points. 37 points in the fourth quarter alone. Yep. And and not only was a just a lectric offense with the at that musen Muhammad touchdown man. But that was it something else?

Michael Marcangelo:

Yep. It was it was unbelievable. And at that point in time, you're like, you know what? This could be it like, you know, we didn't really know we didn't respect the Panthers in New England at this point in time. That point Uh, I was like, maybe they're onto something here, and then the Patriots drive on the next drive, right? And Mike Revell catches the touchdown. And you know, well, here we go. Yeah, here we go. Yeah, it wasn't a clean catch like it was he bottled it and it was an athletic catch, and then raise favorite boy Ricky prole later in the fourth quarter. Another one. But then I think I think we get overlooked is what happened after this touchdown. What was john Casey on on the next kickoff? kicks out a bounce. The Patriots are at the 40 yard line. Yeah, you give Tom Brady a minute and eight seconds left, from 40 to 40 yard that he could not you could not keep keep the ball in bounds. And we all know what happens next.

Joe Malkin:

And and that was so just to go off of that, and that that was like 2001 all over again. Right. We had patriots fans as kids, we have seen Tom Brady and Jr. redmon. And Jermaine Wiggins and Troy Brown, just run down the field, all over the Rams. And we all remember the spike as Tom Brady put all of his faith on the foot of number four out of military and, and literally there, they're about to do it again. And and when you put the when john Casey who was really an above average NFL kicker, you're in the Super Bowl, and you can't just put the ball and I understand what they were doing because a lot of times, especially back then, it wasn't about putting the ball out of the back of the endzone because now they have five yards more, kickers legs are stronger. But it was a lot about directional kicking and putting the ball into the corner. And he just screwed the pooch. And and that and that set up. What what's about to happen next.

Rob Kelly:

And what happened next. So I think that john Casey thing had a lot to do with what's about to happen next because Casey knew Casey knew who was waiting on that sidelines. You know what I mean? It's not like this is the first time that Tom Brady had a chance was under two minutes left to win a goddamn Superbowl. So I think that was in his head going up to that tee. And he knew what was about to happen. And you know who else knew

Rayshawn Buchanan:

that as well? Number 87 Muslim Muhammad could there on the sideline get talking? And you know, is it very different language that was talking to about a St. Louis It was like, Oh, this is a dynasty, we're going to become to you know, two times and within three years, Musa Muhammad calmly knew he knew he was no longer in Michigan State. He knew he would no longer plan was to berline or attend 10 Bianca Touka, he was playing with those guys anymore. He came never told us on this time last Superman was in a building. And he's like, you know what? We're about to go home. And Brady was gonna become not the one time but the two time champion. And that's exactly what

Joe Malkin:

happened. And in this drive, when literally, I'm just I'm looking over it again. First, Tim byakko. But I can't believe you just drop that in a tuba as I'm looking at this final drive. So they get the ball with a buck 13 left now one of the big differences here is that they had more timeouts left than they did in Superbowl 36. But Bobby, I don't want to steal your thunder here, but they try

Rob Kelly:

right ahead.

Joe Malkin:

This drive, literally almost the exact same way.

Michael Marcangelo:

Exactly.

Joe Malkin:

It might have been hey, here's your playscript Tommy, this is what we're doing. So I mean, it's a 2928 lead for Carolina. The Panthers outscored the Patriots in the fourth quarter. I mean they really had for tie games. Um, start training and training. So but the they had outscored the Patriots even after the kick that wins this game they had outscored the Patriots 1918 in the fourth quarter for a game that really was only 30 minutes and a nipple at halftime. It was the I couldn't get through it.

Rob Kelly:

So much

Joe Malkin:

ready. Randy gets ready against the first down to the Carolina 47. And then, this is this is where the game turns into that final drive in New Orleans two years prior a 20 yard pass to Troy brown a 13 yard pass to Troy Brown. We saw that right now he doesn't have Jermaine Wiggins because he's on the other sideline hoping to get a Super Bowl with Carolina. So he goes to Daniel Graham. For four yards.

Michael Marcangelo:

They call a timeout, Deion branch 17 yards they call their final timeout that I'm going to hear I think what if you might forget if you haven't watched it recently, I implore everyone to listen to this to go back and watch it. The first 13 out yard Pastor Troy Brown was great. The next play he's called for offensive pass interference. Yeah. And they push it right back and they push him back and what is what is Brady do? He throws another third pass to Troy brown back to it. That's up another four yards. Pass. I think it was two to Daniel Graham on which set up which covered a third down. I mean, this was guts. And earlier in the show I said, you know, if they get into like a shooting match, I don't know if they can win. This this game proved it for me. This was what was great about Tom Brady, at this point in his career, is that he was he just

Joe Malkin:

it was all guts. He just went like Mike just said it was guts he just went for it. Basically did what he was told, adjusted to what he needed to. And, and it worked. It worked for him. It worked for Bella check, it worked for the offense. And he always had this very positive tunnel vision. You always talk about tunnel vision being so negative, but Brady saw the light at the end of the tunnel. He saw what the goal was. And he put his team in the best opportunity to get there knowing that he didn't have to be the guy just put your team in the best position to make the plays and that's exactly what he did. And those two passes to Troy brown come right back to him. Thank goodness he didn't blackballing like you blackballed Ronald Jones last week, but he he didn't blackball a guy for a PCI he just went right back to them. They got the job done. Third time out. nine seconds left. Here we go.

Rob Kelly:

Right and I don't correct me if I'm crazy. viteri missed three kicks in this game before this kick. If I'm if I'm not mistaken.

Joe Malkin:

Yeah, it wasn't a good day.

Rob Kelly:

It wasn't a good day for Adam infinitary coming up to this next kick. He was pretty much the reason the game was still tied to kicks Okay, yeah. And I One of them was 42 yarder, wasn't it? One of them was a short kick.

Michael Marcangelo:

He also missed it in Houston earlier that year, which which everyone was thinking like, man, like this is just not his stadium.

Rob Kelly:

I'll never forget. Oh, okay. I was just kidding. I'll never forget my buddy's dad. Literally yelling at the TV sag. Cut them in the offseason cut them in the gone. What is going on with finitary? And I believe he was all right. I don't know. I don't know what you guys think. But

Rayshawn Buchanan:

what no, right? But it's like, even even with him missing because I do remember missing. But when it got to that final quick. I'm like, Listen, he's done this before. He's gonna make this physical. Like, yeah, whatever happened in the first or third. Like, at that moment, he was becoming a Robert Ori of the NFL. Whenever the moment mattered, he was going to rise to drain it. So you know, so yeah, so I wasn't worried about that. Like just just just get him in position. He's gonna make it and you know, saarbrucken Pro which a dynasty dreams were down the drain.

Joe Malkin:

That's where we were as fans, right? Like we if he had made those other two kicks. Now he missed one in the in the first quarter, one in the third that he missed was actually blocked. So we can't really put that all on him. But I remember thinking like, well, we wouldn't even have to do this if he had made the first kick. But here we are. And that's revisionist history. And it's what the Patriots did. And it's what most teams should do get over your mistakes. It happens. Let's try and fix them.

Michael Marcangelo:

I also think if you guys remember again, thousand three right to this point, there had been four or sorry, there had been three before this kick. Three Super Bowls decided on the last second field goal. The first two were missed. Jim O'Brien missed his last second kick in Super Bowl five. Scott Norwood. We all know what happened in Super Bowl 25. Then Terry was the only kicker to this point to make a last second field goal kick. twice, and they did it again.

Rob Kelly:

Yeah,

Rayshawn Buchanan:

yeah, that's so that's the second reference. We may just gotten over. So just like Joe said to me, we may lose some fans of Buffalo but who cares, right?

Joe Malkin:

buffalo they're just

Rob Kelly:

I don't know, Buffalo is a fan base. We want to mess with guys. You guys seen the tailgates get the table and just say,

Joe Malkin:

I mean, they're allowing people into their stadium right now. So that's one thing they got going for.

Rob Kelly:

Then military makes that field goal. Right. And we're champions one more time. Again, we're champions and at this point, and it's not the same emotional feeling that that first championship had, like nowhere close. I don't think we're gonna see any tears tonight. But Wow. Wow. But so, this, but this, this is the official launch of the dynasty, right? This is when you knew that this wasn't just a one year wonder team. This was a team that the NFL was going to have to deal with and Tom Brady was a quarterback the NFL was going to have to deal with for a very long time. Granted, no one thought it'd be 2020 and to do would be 43 years old, still dropping dimes. This was that moment where it was like all right, Patriots

Michael Marcangelo:

are here. Yeah, Bobby, this is like again, just echoing your sentiments dude. Like This was the game This was the season where you could say there is not one thing that the opponent could do the Patriots could not outdo right. Oh one we didn't know. Oh two yet right but oh three like they dominated if you know you want to play like a 12 nothing game will beat you. You want to play 31 nothing will beat you. And if you want to put up 30 or 29 points, and you know and go toe to toe with us in the fourth quarter of a super bowl and put up 37 points, guess what? last seconds, we're going to beat you.

Rob Kelly:

Two little tiny pieces of trivia here. Ricky Pro, scored the game time touchdown. And both Super Bowl wins for the Patriots up to this point. I guess the Rams scored the game time touchdown, Panthers game time touchdown. Also, did you guys know Kevin Fox two point conversion is dude gained over 1000 yards that season combined. It was his first point scored of the entire season. On that two point conversion that was just

Joe Malkin:

which is wild. Because he really was kind of the the, you know, this was where he also became what he would go on to be for so many years. Just that pads. Yeah, just that that extra piece that got the job done. And he ended up having to be the guy that needed to score a little bit more. But that's a good piece of trivia. I didn't know that. I mean, you know, this was just so much fun because you win it again. And now but now, you know, Ray, Ray's over here celebrating? You know, it's like we're in Oh, three again, but and then but it was kind of like, Alright, you know, like our parents had told us like, especially my dad was like, you know, don't get used to this because it doesn't happen all the time. And it now we're starting to get a little used to it because it's happened twice in three years. And we'll get to what happens I get the second drop 404 we'll get to what happens in oh four but it's just that this was really what kicked off the the I don't want to call it dominance yet at this point. But okay.

Michael Marcangelo:

I don't lose another game until like November the next year. Yeah, it's

Rob Kelly:

2021 game winning streak. That ended against I believe it was the Steelers that I shared in like week nine. Halloween how Yeah, so like, this team was real. And they were here to stay. And that's that's really where it weaves right in the 2004. Now here's the question. Next episode. Is it a championship rewrap slash? Hell? No.

Joe Malkin:

There's no hangover they

Rob Kelly:

just kept drinking. It just kept going. Yeah, call it the we'll call it the power hour or the the hair of the dog. That's the next podcast.

Michael Marcangelo:

I'm not gonna say it doesn't for patriots. The hair of the dog?

Rob Kelly:

Yeah. Yeah, you know like that. No, no. But yeah, so this this was the one that launched it 2003 patriots, the second of six Super Bowls over the next 20 years. So we'll definitely be talking about this team again in the future. For raesha Buchanan Mark Mark Angela, Joe Malkin. I'm the real BK Bob Kelly has been the 2003 New England Patriots championship rewrap. We'll see you guys in the next championship.

Craig D'Alessandro:

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Ask MSW podcast. The NSW podcast is a one our weekly to our monthly podcast, recapping the biggest stories in the world of sports with the New England flavour. The show notes and transcripts of today's episode can be found on their description box below, as well as our WordPress and buzzsprout pages. If you're new to the show, and you like what you heard, please consider subscribing. It's the easiest way to see when we publish new episodes. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Google and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to rate us and leave a review of any of our shows. We always appreciate your feedback. Also, be sure to follow us on all of our social medias. All foreign links will be in the show notes. The SMS w crew. I'm Craig D'Alessandro. We'll talk to you next time.