The Great NBA Overrated Draft: Hot Takes, Hoops History & Basketball Blasphemy

Four Hosts And A Dangerous Idea

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Holy shit, it's missing the point. We're doing a four-man show for the first time in forever, and for the first time ever, it's this combination of human beings. I'm very excited. We have, you know, we've had a little shuffle. Mental illness might have had something to do with it. I don't know. But here we are. Uh, new people on the show, new blood. Uh mental illness awareness week, maybe. I don't know. Uh, but here we are with the with the new four. Three of the four of us are wearing hats. I will be wearing the hat of host and participant today in what we're doing, which is an idea Mike came up with. Mike's here, Zach's here, Matt's here, I'm here. Four white guys on a podcast, the rarest of beasts. Mike came up with the idea that we're gonna draft the most overrated players in the history of the National Basketball Association in honor of the fact that we just watched the end of the season. We're still kind of all in basketball mode. The rules are pretty simple. It's a lot like of all of our other drafts, where we're gonna go in order, one, two, three, four, four is gonna pick twice, or snake back up, it's gonna be great. Uh, we'll go around and around until we have a five-man squad, each and every one of us, plus a six-man. What does overrated mean, you ask? I mean, we can discuss, guys. We haven't really defined this, but what I was thinking was, you know, you're not gonna say, I don't know, fuck it. You're not gonna say Brian Scalabrini, right? Because Brian Scalabrini is properly rated, right? So if somebody's bad, it's like, well, okay, you you know, at what degree of not that great in the NBA are we really arguing? We're talking about players a lot of people think are good. A lot of people are gonna be angry with us by the end of this show, I'm sure. That's probably Mike's goal. It's a little bit my goal. It's it's fun to rage bait all you fuckers. Are we gonna rage bait each other throughout the course of this draft? Of course. Of course, that's what we're here to do. I have set up a little internet website, uh one of the old WWWs. Um, because nobody here actually probably trusts me at all. I'm gonna share my screen just so everybody knows that I'm not I'm above board here. It did it work. Can you guys see my screen? All right, great. Here, oh shit, gotta get nude vista off there. The hipster's pouring sight. I'm just kidding, it's not really there. I thought of that before I shared my screen. Okay. You see my shit right here. Enter your team information. I got all four of our names. I'm gonna hit generate draft order. That's the order we're gonna go. Drum roll. Craig, put in a drum roll. Matt's drafting first, Zach after him, myself third, probably the worst draft position I could have gotten, and uh Mike fourth. This is gonna be great. Draft in no particular order. I I don't uh think you need to go like one through five, point guard, shooting, or whatever. I think you can get whoever you want. You want to draft your six man first? I don't yeah, fucking go for it. I don't know. Like whatever your strategy is. But Matt,

What “Overrated” Really Means

SPEAKER_04 2:50

since you're first in our draft order, take it away.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

God,

Kevin Garnett At No 1

SPEAKER_03 2:54

I really didn't want to go first. Wait, what are we doing? Yeah, I I guess when we were picking our favorite sandwich toppings, but okay, so after very, very brief consideration, I think I have to pick a guy who uh receives all the praise in the world, kind of gets gets credit with setting the standard for power forwards, at least for defensive ones, uh, who really just never never really rose to the occasion except for one time, and he uh arguably only did it because he was on a the first super team. And I'm gonna go with at the number one spot power forward Kevin Garnett.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

What does overrated mean? It means that your praise is greater than your output. This man gets credited with the uh defining characteristics of what a power forward should be in a defensive and uh travel slashing scoring position. He only won one ring, and it was after the Celtics traded the universe to get him with Rayon, Paul Pierce, and Rajan Rando. His knee exploded in the same season after his fucking after he won a championship. What about the first 12 seasons of Minnesota?

Michael Marcangelo 4:05

So we can stay out with me. I thought first uh first of all, Matt, I love what you're doing here. Like I love what you've done with the place. This is great. Uh had he never come to Boston, we would all look at KG as an overrated player. Thank you. Had he not come to Boston and won a championship?

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Yeah, I got Jordan never won six championships. We would all be like, ah, he's not as good. If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. It did happen.

Michael Marcangelo 4:28

If we had to draft over at coaches, you all know how to draft Doc Ruber. It's like that'd be my head coach, but it's not you. Oh, we shouldn't have a great i read. On the flat, we're at the coach, yeah. Yeah. I already gave mine some number one pick, so we're not doing that. You can't take him from me. But I love what you're doing here, Matt. That's great. Good for you. Dave turned out. I'm bored by rage. I'm fucking so angry.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

The question is not whether he's good or not. It's is he overrated? And he gets the title of like the archetype. Is the architect did not win rings? Because one out of 14. That's not great for the best point guard at like 15 time all-star, 15 time all-star, one ring with three other all-time, with three other Hall of Famers. One ring is a lot of rings.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

It's hard to win a championship.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Like, what the fuck? Ah man, I don't okay. So I think when you're looking at the other guys, it's not that good. It's just not that good of a statistic for it.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

All right. Fine. Whatever.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Zero finals in Minnesota. Zero. Go ahead. Yeah, because he was all right. Who's second?

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Uh I'm second, all

Michael Jordan Versus The Myth

SPEAKER_02 5:35

right? Yeah, you are. All right. Uh my first pick at shooting guard from North Carolina, number 23, Michael Jordan. So this is so ridiculous. This is well, and I think the reason I picked Jordan is had he had his career accolades and just fucked off essentially, that he probably wouldn't be my number one pick. But this is really based on everyone's perception of Jordan, like now, after, especially the last dance. Just everyone hypes this guy up to be such a god, carries his team, this and that. Like, I'm sorry, how many championships did he win without Scottie Pippen? How many finals did he even go to without Scottie Pippen? Right? So I would say Scotty Pippen.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

I I gotta tell you, Zach.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

I I just get that personally. Good, as you should. Along with like the Jordan brand, and then just like him pushing the last dance, just because God forbid the LeBron's gonna pass him in scoring and pass him in every accolade possible. Except championships like the one that Matthew. Yes, except championships. I can wholeheartedly agree that Michael Jordan needed Scottie Pippen to carry him to those championships. Yes, absolutely. I'm actually gonna zag.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

I'm gonna zag with Zach right now. I'm gonna say I'm gonna just for the integrity of the show, I'm gonna weigh it in and I'm gonna agree with him. Because it really is not about how good they work. That's not the conversation that we're actually having right now. This this is actually has their legacy surpassed their resume, and if so, by how much?

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yes. Michael Dillon's resume is undeniable.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Yeah. It's it's it's I I can actually see what you're saying because I was gonna do I what I thought was gonna be the most outrageous pick, which I'm about to make, and it's gonna pale in comparison to yours because that's obviously insane. But I use the exact logic. And obviously, this is so kind of the logic Matt used, but he was also, I think, just trying to be mean. I think the I think the logic does apply. Like at some point, your legacy is gonna get so big that your resume can't match it, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:54

So I kind of see his point. Yeah, exactly. And that's and that's that's all I'm not saying that Michael Jordan was bad. I'm not saying that he wasn't a champion. If you're gonna build a team and you want to build your championship team about around one player, yes, it's going to be Michael Jordan. It's not gonna be a LeBron. I don't want to get into a LeBron versus Jordan conversation, but if you want to build a championship team, it's gonna be around Michael Jordan.

Michael Marcangelo 8:15

As long as Scotty Pippen's on the team cube.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

As long as Scotty Pippen's on the team cube. But again, like the the 20, 30 years since he retired, it's just been so much smoke being blown out of his ass, and all these people just glazing Jordan and just like like all and and the worst the thing that really gets me is like when people talk about him, and especially like Celtics fans, like, dude, like Celtics fans back in the 80s and 90s fucking hated Jordan. Like other teams, other fan bases hated Jordan because they didn't want to lose to him. Talk to Knicks fans back in the 90s, how much they how what they thought about Jordan.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

Like just the whole definition of people, just to your point about the fans and the and the honestly, the the the LeBron versus Jordan argument has uh kind of sullied Jordan's legacy in its own way because everyone's just emotional about it now. It's not an analytical thing anymore. You know, it's about I was there, kids these days, you don't you will never understand, get off my lawn, do this, do that. It's at the end of the day, like the myth has grown so large. And when you're watching The Last Dance, I think we're all getting a uh you know a boner from the competency porn that is that documentary, right? Like you're you're so enamored with a guy succeeding at this level, and it but it does that does just add to the mythos, right? Because at the end of the day, uh even the flu game is basically completely debunked now, right? But nobody even really talks about that, right? So it's like, yeah, I got I I don't think it's a bad pick.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

So I at first, when you first said Jordan, I the first instinct I had was to be like, wow, this is what it feels like to draft in front of the Jets. Like, awesome. But when you think about it, you the point is valid, it's true. The reason I disagree with you, and it's there's only one reason for it, is because I don't think there has been a better uh talent player than Jordan. I don't think LeBron is better. I think that that debate is divided by age alone. What year you're born determines whether you think it's LeBron or Jordan. But if somebody were better than him, then I'd agree with you because then his hype is completely overblown. But as the king, maybe he deserves all the spoils to come with it. But it's not a bad pick. It's not a bad pick.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

I I think it's justifiable. I for when you first said it, I thought I was like, okay, we have to start over. You always left the podcast. I almost have chat.

SPEAKER_05 10:31

I don't think another pick.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Um, Mike, any thoughts on this pick uh before I make mine?

Michael Marcangelo 10:37

I mean, it's exactly what I thought he was gonna do. So I'm glad that we're all we're all doing this because at least you know this is this is this is what I would do. So I'm glad. I'm glad that everyone's gonna rage baby.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

Yeah, I am about to do the same thing, and I genuinely thought I had a fucking I had a smoking gun, and then you guys just came on here with some real methy energy. I'm gonna select to the third pick. I'm just not no more preamble, no further ado.

Kobe Bryant And The Legend Gap

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Uh, I'm taking Kobe Bryant. Uh that's what I was planning on doing coming in here. Uh Matt has now left the podcast. I think he is number one. Like, rest in peace to the dead, you know, no offense. Sorry you died. I think he's absolutely number one and least efficient player that's in most people's top fives. I think he's one of the least efficient basketball players I've ever watched play. I'm not just doing recency bias with, you know, the last season and the Kobe tour being jacking up 50 and maybe making nine and uh him like on a race to whatever weird kind of scoring thing he was looking for. He gets talked about like he didn't win those first three with Prime Shack. Like the the way that the the way that the myth, to Zach's point, I'm gonna piggyback on this logic, the way that the myth has has exceeded the reality is so that when people talk about Kobe, they talk about him as this sort of solo deity. But what happened was, guys, I'm just gonna explain to those of you who weren't paying attention, his style of play started to interact with his legend. And because he often tried to do it alone in games when he shouldn't have, people kind of act like he did do it alone in reality, which is not true. He's never won a championship without a first team All-NBA player on his team. He's never won a championship without somebody who's a who's a bona fide rim protector and like an elite scorer around the rim on his team. I would piggyback on the Scottie Pippen point there. I think Pal Gasol is another great example. I think he was coached by the best coach to ever coach in the history of basketball. I think he was an elite defender with the.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

When was he on the Spurs?

SPEAKER_04 12:43

Well, you know, that's to be debated. I I would actually almost agree with you, Matt, but I'm trying to hype my point up right now. The I think when he first got in the league, I'd say first seven years, I think he was an elite defender, and I think he stopped doing that, and people didn't notice. His clutchness is pretty undeniable. I I think he was a clutch player, but I think that that came from maybe not necessarily a place of rising to the occasion and more a place of he was gonna do that anyway. Like he was gonna shoot anyway. I promise. I really promise. I watched I watched most of this guy's career uh as far as like collected games go. I uh I'm picking Kobe Bryant.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

I actually don't hate that pick, even though I walked away just because it's so mean. Like, God, rest in peace, bro. Because he's dead? Do you think it had a lot to do with that? So was Will Chamberlain.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

I was planning on picking him later.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Who's Jesus Christ? There are dead people, and then there's people that died. You like it's timing. But do you think it had something to do with the fact that he was next man up after Jordan? Like he just like he got to take the reins as the best scorer in the league, arguably. Well, how long did that era last?

SPEAKER_04 13:47

He was the best player in the NBA. Only the only years he wasn't were for the years that he was like, I'll fucking play baseball. You know, like Kobe Malaysiawan could go win a championship.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Right. And then Kobe got to kind of just scroll.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Was the best player in basketball maybe like what two seasons?

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Oh, no, no, but I mean like score, like he was a stylistic score, like Nike went all in on Kobe after his his deal went sour with whatever the though. Right. That fed into his list. So I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Also, Kobe only won what one single MVP. And then uh I would argue that his years between having Shaq and Pow were kind of irrelevant. No one ever talks about those years. Agreed. Uh agreed. I mean, I know I know they didn't win any championships, but like if you can still have prolific NBA seasons and not win championships or at least make some sort of like playoff run. Like it's kind of a blur in between Shaq and Pow.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Yeah, Kevin Garnett, too.

unknown 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

This is not your pick.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

You got your hedge of time. So Mike, any thoughts before uh before you make your pick?

Michael Marcangelo 14:47

Once Zach said Jordan and you came back to your seat, I knew you were gonna say Kobe because you and I actually had this conversation a couple weeks ago when I put Kobe at three, and you were like, I don't like I I think he's top ten, but he's not top five. So that was in the back of my mind.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

That's a good point. I mean, I really genuinely think he's the patron saint of yeah. I mean, I I've for I've said this since he his plane. Well, that's another that's another part, that's another part of things, you know what I mean? There's a little stank on him too, I gotta say. And the other thing being that I think he's the patron saint of people that think the hardest shot is is the is the right shot. You know, like I just think he took a lot of really difficult shots that went in. I I agree, but I am just somebody who thinks if a better pass is available, you should pass. And I just know he wasn't like that, so maybe we just don't mesh. Also, he's a fucking Lakers, so you know, it's hard not to hate him. Um not hate. Hate's a strong word, and it's posthumous now.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

So yeah, but he's dead, so you sound like a real asshole there.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

I still didn't kill him. And I hated him while he was alive, so like you know, I feel like I got I can get grandfathered in here.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

After the uh true story, after the Celtics beat them in the finals, me and Dave went up to Hampton Beach and had no means, no Kobe shirts made for those for the uh Celtics parade. That's true. And we wore them proudly.

Michael Marcangelo 16:07

Love that for you. He never learned all right,

Steve Nash And Paul Pierce Heat

Michael Marcangelo 16:11

Mike. You get to make two yeah. So my uh my first pick, I'm gonna go with uh uh the point guard that everybody loves, but really overhyped. Steve Nash. Oh I thought I was gonna guess, I was gonna guess wrong. Steve Nash has two MVPs, zero final appearances, only three conference final appearances. And I would just say uh Steve Nash has mentioned two MVPs, and nobody thinks that he was the best player in either of those seasons. I think I don't I I would I would lead you to argue or lead you to tell me what impact did Steve Nash have on the game of basketball. But he was also he was a great like he was one of the greatest of all time. He isn't he he was around some of them, but he's not one of the greatest.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

He got a line in that Nelly Frittado song, so like that's a pretty cool impact.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

Yeah, Mike, you fucker, you got one of those? It's true.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

So are you saying overrated like in terms of him winning those two MVPs? It kind of sounds more like the accolades he got for his career rather than like his legacy, which like I know we're kind of comparing noble.

Michael Marcangelo 17:19

If hit if his name comes up in with a group of the people that do him in basketball, they would all be like, oh yeah, he was a great player. It's like yeah, but was he one of the greatest? Like, I just I think I think that do think go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

I just I think the I think you chose the wrong word when you say when you said what are what's his impact on the game of basketball, because his impact on the game of basketball is being the archetype pivot option in the seven seconds or less offense. Like that's a real thing. Like you you have to show people tape of Steve Nash if you want to run a seven seconds or less offense, right? Like if you want to run a high intensity pass first from the point guard position, you know, score quickly, wear the other team out offense. You you gotta watch Steve Nash tape. So it's like that's the impact right there, right? And like, I mean, what did he have? Eight all-stars? Like, I I mean, you know, like he was there thereabouts all the time. His teams were always good because he was on them. You know, like I I don't know, that's hard for me, man. Like, I agree. He's the pick he's the worst white boys here.

Michael Marcangelo 18:19

Like, I don't know why you're picking like also I hate that this is the one that you have to fit that you have to say, well, you know, this is hard for me to digest.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

Jordan Jordan with the oil. You have no, you but you have to look at it from the from the like you just finished saying, you were like, if a bunch of people that know the game of basketball are sitting around, they're gonna go, yeah, he's a good player. That's how hard that's how he's rated. And I think that's appropriate.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

I feel like that since he's retired. Since he's retired, though, it kind of feels like the his hype has gone up. He was a cornerstone, yeah. He's the important piece, but he was just a piece, and he wasn't more than that. He and now you talk about him, it's like, oh Steve Nash, he you know, he basically invented passing, it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

I uh I agree. I admittedly forgot about Steve Nash. That's just as like his existence. Just I just kind of forgot about it, to be honest. When you said Steve Nash, I'm like, ooh, oh yeah, that guy.

Michael Marcangelo 19:11

Yeah, but like 2K3. Good passer rating. My next pick, sorry, Dave, is Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce. Uh zero MVPs, only one NBA all-second team, never a top five MVP uh voting. But aside from all of that, if he never spoke after he retired, I'd probably be like, you know what? He is exactly you know where he should be. But he thinks he has as deep of a bag as Jordan, as Kobe, as LeBron. Paul Pierce talks about Paul Pierce like he's Larry Bird, and that's why for me, I have to tell you he's overrated. You guys both reacted like you were both gonna fucking pick up.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Oh, dude, I put all my eggs in the Paul Pierce overrated basket. My whole draft's fucked right now.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

All right. I mean, okay, hard disagree with all of you. Hard disagree. And and just to the point of the spirit of the show, Paul Pierce is universally hated. Everybody but us hates Paul Pierce. What are you guys fucking talking about? Everyone you ask that isn't a Celtics fan is been will will say exactly what Mike just said. So he's not overrated, he's criminally underrated. People talk about him like he wasn't that good.

Michael Marcangelo 20:24

I think he's perfectly rated by everybody else except for him.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Right, yes, and that's the problem.

Michael Marcangelo 20:31

You you're saying he was bad? No, but I'm saying he's somewhere in between people think he was bad and him thinking that he could have it, he he has as deep of a bag as Jordan. Like he's he he could be one-on-one in the same playoffs.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

What are you talking about? I would think that too if I did that shit. What the fuck? He went through like every boss battle you possibly could in that era, like he fucked him up one-on-one.

Michael Marcangelo 20:51

Except he wins. Well, when he had, you know, when he had when he had the backup, of course. Of course, he did. I'm talking about the one-on-one moments in those games. He thinks he is on the level with Michael Jordan, and the rest of the league thinks that he's so you're saying you're saying he's by himself. He's very under he overrated. The weird point on the who's the most overrated show. I agree with you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

He's the Chad Ochosenko of the NBA. Chad Ochosinko never won a fucking championship.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

No better finals are Sugar MVP in his case.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Listen, jeez, he wasn't even the best, he wasn't even the best small forward of his time. I mean, D Wade. No one says he is, though. That's my whole point. Like this, when did this turn into the who's the best player?

SPEAKER_04 21:40

God, like fucking Christ. Everyone hates Pop Pierce. So where does he get on like an entire year of like, why would you think you're as good as D. Wade? And he was like, I didn't even say that. And they were like, You are not. That was like the that's the whole fucking thing about Paul Pierce.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Like someone's overgrouping him.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Do you think but do you think uh green teamers? Love and affection for Paul Pierce, like the strength of overratingness kind of like bounces out the uh the rest of the NBA's perception of Paul Pierce that like it can be worthy of having this conversation.

Michael Marcangelo 22:13

Yeah, yeah. I would say a lot most of my input for this was based on where I am. Like I've I've been around and I have to hear about the aura of Paul Pierce. I saw it, I saw it. He won it files MVP. He was a dog in that year for sure. But there are like 16 other years. I'm like, well, he could have shown up and he didn't.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

2006. Yeah.

Michael Marcangelo 22:35

I but Dave, I sent sorry.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

You guys like this is a Boston-based sports podcast. Like, what just happened is the equivalent of like fucking, I don't know, like the desecrating a portrait of the Mother Mary in the Vatican. Like, I it's I can't even like fathom that you like. I feel like you three are I'm on practical jokers right now. And like I just heard what I fucking heard from like I I'm like looking at Boston memorabilia behind fucking everybody. Like, I like what is happening right now. I feel like I've lost my cotton pick in mind.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

You know what? I'm gonna go on Lim. I'm gonna go on Limb. That whole team deserves to be on the overrated list. One ring, you're the losers, one ring.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Can I can I add to that too? I was thinking about this the other day. I know that's somewhat off topic, but like the Knicks run that just happened, where they won all those straight games and and they only lost three, and only one team won it on, which was the Hawks. Like, that's a great run. Didn't the Celtics go to like seven games in every series except for the finals?

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Yeah, I'm sorry they had a pension for a little drama to make it a little more interesting. You know, sorry that they like wanted to give some teams a chance. I'm sitting here like listening to people shit on the fucking 08 Celtics. This is sacrilegious. I can't do this. We have to move on. They're over it. We're up. Oh shit. I wasn't really ready. I've honestly spent most of the show being mad at you guys. Um okay, I have a couple in my in

Carl Malone And The Playoff Drop

SPEAKER_04 24:00

my back pocket. I'll I'll take Carl Malone. I think it's the easiest pick. I think it's the one that actually rounds out my my draft and and sort of like I can anchor the yeah, I went for the take and the conversation thing first. With now I actually really want to have the actual most overrated guy in the history of the league on my team. Regular season God, Carl Malone, playoff drop-off. I I mean you kids that remember uh Paul George and playoff P, who I'm sure is gonna come back up in this uh in this in this show, in this conversation. I have to tell you Carl Malone was the ultimate fucking bright lights, fade away guy. The mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays was a was a running uh is this is like a running fact among basketball heads. He had John Stockton feeding him for nigh on 20 fucking years. They they were running the pick and roll in an era where there weren't guys his size to like actually come out and do anything against them. He's often in the power forward rankings, ranked ahead of Hakeem, Dirk, KG, fuck you, Matt, Barkley. Like none of these these he's not better than any of these guys. You it's surprising when you see where he is on the scoring list. I I really understand why you would see the scoring list if you're just watching scoring and box scores and shit. But I I genuinely believe that Carl Malone was Amazon Prime from November to April, and I'm fucking lost package at the postal service for you know, not to overextend the metaphor from you know April to June. So I just don't I I don't think he was that good. Like and I really think it's about how good he was compared to how people remember him because the talk about the league just losing Carl Malone in its history, it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

So I agree with you, and the only reason I didn't pick him is because he did so much damage to his legacy after retiring with the whole like you know, marrying a 14-year-old that I felt like he like reduced his hype. But you're so right, he was the ultimate bail in the playoffs, can't deliver, can't get it done. But I'll play all these years and I'll score a lot in September for you.

SPEAKER_04 25:58

His offensive output with him not having a championship, like that's fucking that's absolutely diabolical.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

I also can't respect the guy who wears two wristbands. I just think it looks stupid.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Hell yeah. Oh, he did, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

He didn't get married. I think he like impregnated a 13-year-old. So it was bad. Just for the record.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Well, I still listen to Great Balls of Fire when it comes on the radio. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

It was spotlight worthy.

SPEAKER_04 26:23

Yeah, it's not great. It's not a great look, Carl Malone. Uh, it's not really what this is about, Matt. Stop dragging us into the fucking tabloids, okay? I'm sorry for to his victims, but you've brought up every sexual assault that's on the table to bring up so far in this in this podcast.

Michael Marcangelo 26:34

Well, no means no. Everything that to say about Carl Malone and why she'd be on this list, you can just go back and watch the 97 and 98 finals. Yes.

unknown 26:44

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Yeah, he he lost to a guy that I said was the most overrated, too. So I mean that makes him very overrated. I mean, of course.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

He won an MVP in the year where Jordan beat him in the fucking finals. Like, I it's that guy's overrated, according to me. And we've already made him overrated. So that means that must mean Carlone's hella fucking overrated.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Steve Curry's nothing.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Zero. Well, I guess that's fair enough. All right, uh, Zach, you're up.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

My pick. All right. I have like a whole list like by position, and because Paul Pierce was taken, I'm just taking this guy next. But it makes sense.

Carmelo And The Pure Scorer Label

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Carmelo Anthony. I think it's on my list. P was on my bad. Dude, just like again, the way New York, I mean, now that Brunson and then the Knicks have won the championship, I think Carmelo's history in that town. But before this year, Carmelo was king in New York, just a prolific scorer. That's all he talked about was Carmelo's scoring. And that dude didn't do jack shit in the NBA, man. And yes, I know he had a good run in Portland and you know, kind of as a contributing player, but like that's really all he was, and like just so overrated, especially being in that draft with LeBron and Bosch and like just way like that. It was such a Star Stella like draft that I yes, he he was a good player. He was a very good player, but goddamn was he overrated.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

I agreed. It hurts me because I loved watching him. I would pick any NBA 2K matchups, I would I would pick the Nuggets or I would pick the Knicks, like depending on the era, because he was on the team. I he was like the most fun 2K player to play with, in my opinion. I think of him when I think of like really beautiful, straight up and down mid-range shots. I think a lot of us do. I've been crying out for the mid-range game to come back to basketball in a in a big way. And like I think seeing the Celtics on a regular basis jack up threes and like live and die by it still, that old adage still being true. Seeing the Spurs do that to themselves, just shoot themselves in the dick with that same strategy over and over again in the finals. Like, I I've been just been crying out for efficiency from the mid-range, and I think that Mello didn't live up to his hype, so therefore he automatically fits into this draft perfectly, you know. Like, I just think he was talked about. There was a people forget because these people won't admit it, but there was a whole subset of people when he came into the league at the same time as LeBron that were saying he's just as good, if not better. There was then a period, I think I remember really clearly of people being like, he's a better pure scorer. There was a lot of that. Like, he's a better pure scorer, though, because his shooting. And I think that that I just think that that idea of him always was bigger than what he actually produced. So it's like hard for me to disagree.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

It's not like just the most telltale sign that someone's overrated when they say, Oh, he's a pure scorer. It's like, can't you just say he's a scorer? Yeah. Oh, he's a pure scorer. You like the way the ball you like the way the ball goes in the hoop. Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 29:46

It's a nice way of saying he doesn't do anything else. That's all he does. And if he's not doing that, he's not doing anything.

Michael Marcangelo 29:54

Oh man, Mike, what do you think? I I love that pick. I also I also love Carmelo. So I know. He's like our generation's guy, right? Yeah. Yeah, and I think about them every time I have Hunter Materius.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

So Really, Mello? Over a basketball game. Oh man, I love that. I I like that pick. Honestly, that I'm I'm glad we got the big uh nuclear bombs out of the way and we started making like genuine, like overrated basketball picks. Uh, it seems like Zach and I thought very similarly in this draft because Mello was next on my list, Matt, and then Matt again.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Okay, let's let's just get it out of

Allen Iverson Rings Versus Influence

SPEAKER_03 30:36

the way. Alan Iverson. I knew this was gonna happen. Yeah, you knew it was gonna happen because you know what I'm talking about. That's my favorite player ever.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

That's not cool.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

No rings. You know what the problem with if you want to look at Shirley from a basketball standpoint? His he would hold the ball for 60% of a game and then not win in the playoffs. That's a problem. He gets he's literally held as one of the best point guards or this one of the best scoring ball carriers of all time, and he never was efficient. So why do we talk about it? Why do we care? Rajan Rondo has more rings than Alan Iverson. Why are we talking about Alan Iverson? Because it was cool to watch him step over that that fish face. I think uh funny looking guy.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

I think this is fucking outrageous. I think he's attropriately rated. I defy you to name me Alan Iverson's best five teammates.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

No, no, listen, he was on an island. I understand, but haven't we all didn't we criticize Jordan for having Pippen and we criticized everyone for having that that other guy? He couldn't do it at any point, and he didn't bail to go do it, or just contradicted yourself.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

We could we criticize we criticized Jordan for for always needing the guy. We did that on this show. We criticized Kobe for needing Shag. We just did it on the on this show, and now we're gonna beat Alan Iverson with a stick because he didn't win one without having a guy. Like didn't he have Mellock?

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah, I mean, just we've done talking of a bad end that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

Come on, that's a bad fit. Let's be honest. That's your turn, my turn, basketball. Like, that's never gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

I so to Matt, to back up your point. So top six players, points per game in the playoffs. Number six, LeBron, number five, Jerry West, number four, Kevin Durant, number three, Alan Iverson, number two, Luka Doncic, who's probably gonna be someone's pick on here, and number one, Michael Jordan, who's my pick, of course. Uh all those guys except for AI and Luca have ranks. That's right. I think if you're averaging that, if you're in top five, or if you're actually number three in scoring, or for a long time, number two in playoff points per game, you should have a ring. I no matter what your supporting cat is.

Michael Marcangelo 32:48

He only won six playoff series in 14 seasons.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Yeah.

Michael Marcangelo 32:53

And by the way, his field goal percentage 42%. Yeah, I would just say, like, if if the argument is he didn't have I mean, I get it. But you should be able to, if you make the playoffs, he should win every open series. And then you just come up in the second round.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

I think that because of the teams that were put around him in his career, he missed the playoffs in 97, 98, 04, 06, 09 in 2010. And I think that like it to still be that at that point on the scoring list is pretty fucking impressive. Like, all things considered. And I mean, genuinely, I think that if you again just think about what people's opinion of him actually is, like the consensus is sort of like he's the guy who almost got it done by himself, and he's the guy who came the closest to getting it done by himself. So that's and I think that's appropriately ranged.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

But if you're making a 2K all-star team, Alan Iverson's on your team.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

I don't know, because if you're making an all-star team, you want a guy that can pass in the point guard position like really effectively. Like, that's the thing. It's like kind of hard to match up guys with Alan Iverson. Like a like a smaller, you know, six-foot-ish shooter. I I wonder what it would have looked like if you put the New York Knicks of today around Allen Iverson because essentially it's been figured out one time how to put how to put somebody around a guard like that and and find success, and it just happened. And then maybe the Isaiah Thomas Pistons, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Yeah, 11 all-stars, no rings, ouch.

Michael Marcangelo 34:16

I think it's a lot better to AI, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

You need a little bit more practice.

Michael Marcangelo 34:21

So when Matt made his list, like what players can I draft that will be a good one. He's naming like all my favorite piss.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Fucking what's gonna piss Dave off the most? That's been my goal. All right, six o'clock pick again.

Paul George Then Chris Paul

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Oh, uh, I'm gonna go with with uh playoff P.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Yeah, I saw that coming. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Gotta take Paul George off the list. We all do we even have to talk about it. This guy, what a disaster. The the the 3-1 lead with Kawhi. That's I mean, it was the best thing I've ever seen. He's just not that guy. And then the logo shot. Well, it's a bad shot. Yeah, it went in, Paul. It went in. If it was a bad shot, you should have defended it. You idiot. But yeah, I hate Paul Paul George.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

I got no argument there. I I've always thought he was overrated. I thought he was overrated from the eye test, to be honest with you. I I've seen him only have a couple. I think I've probably named five really great playoff games that he's played. Unfortunately, one of them was recently against the Celtics. But like, I you know, I think we were making everybody look fucking good uh that that season because Joe Mazzula has absolutely no idea how to coach a basketball team, but that's a different conversation. It's a different show. I mean, if we're drafted coaches, it's not. Yeah, right. Oh my god. That he would be number one on the show. I'll do a bonus coach. Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to argue, honestly. I I knew this guy was getting drafted. He he was a lock as one of the most overrated players to ever play the game. Never lived up to his own hype. Really good, solid defender in his first few years. Uh could never be the number one option. And so many teams over the course of his career rated him as someone who could be. So it's hard for me to disagree. Does anyone have a dissenting opinion?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

He has two first names, so fuck him.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Fuck him is right. Yeah, and they're both Beatles. Oh my god. His middle name is actually Ringo. Um yeah, okay. We'll just move on then, Zach. It was good. Do we like the do we know what his middle name is?

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Now I'm curious. I don't. It's not Ruby. Oh, Clifton. Wait, Clifton, Paul Clifton, Anthony George. He has four names. Oh, wow. Senior. Four first.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

And they didn't find Ringo and John is the two in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Clifton Anthony George Sr. What a mouthful. That guy sucks. All right, my pick.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

He inflicted that on another person. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Did he? He gave them four names. Four names, zero rings, zero bitches. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Four names that you pass on, you're never winning a ring. That kind of personality never wins a ring. Not in a million years.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Alright, my pick. Let's see. Damn, I already took Jordan at shooting guard. I got Carmo Ford. Do I go really obvious? Or do I just go ridiculous again? I'll go obvious. Chris Paul.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Peaking suspicion this is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah, I think Chris Paul is the uh the point guard version of uh Paul George. And that like for someone to have that much longevity in the league too and just have absolutely no real impact is actually really impressive to me. So many different teams that every time you sign with a team, even like Golden State, oh, they have a chance. And with the Suns, when they actually made the final, it's like, oh maybe maybe Paul George is like the or rather uh Chris Paul is the the missing piece. No.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Chris is another one of Paul George's names, actually. He's got he just collects names. He's like a he's like a name sloth. He just he just consumes names.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

It's like infinity stones. Yeah, to be clear. Yeah, uh yeah, useless. I have no use for Chris Paul. I'll just no.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

I will give it a I was gonna say I give him I'll give Chris Paul the benefit of the fact that he probably should have had a ring when the NBA was in control of was it the Lakers? They blocked the trade for him. Like that's bullshit because he probably would have gotten his his little you know moment in the summer, but you're so right.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Yeah, I mean I guess it's hard, right? Because it's like what it I think the only thing that really makes the case is how much his availability suffered, made him suffer throughout his career, right? And it's like how high do you rate that? Because honestly, I think we're all coming around to the idea that it's an incredibly highly rated asset, you know. Like if you just can't stay healthy for an appropriate amount of time to win a championship, you're not gonna win a championship, right? So it's like that's why people rate him in that in that way.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

I agree. Plus, they call him the point god. Like, get out of here, dude. Come on.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

Yeah, do they? Yeah, they do. That is him. That's weird. That's bizarre. I think it's a good pick, too. I think I think it's like there's no team in history that you can't add Chris Paul to then make them better, but then they're gonna get immediately worse because he's gonna fucking get injured. So it's just like all right, is it me again?

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

I'm gonna take. This is hard at this point of the game, actually. This is like getting difficult. I'm gonna take Russell Westbrook.

Westbrook And The Stat Hunting Era

SPEAKER_04 39:12

He's my number one closest to my heart, most overrated player that I've ever watched play the game of basketball. I just personally hate a bad decision maker. I hate them in life, I hate them at work, I hate them on the basketball court. That guy always found a way to make the wrong decision. It was he was so good at making the wrong decision. You had to just think at some point he could just start doing the opposite of what he thought was the best possible idea, and he just never really did that. I think he he's a I guess I would call him a flawed shooter. He doesn't believe that if we're if we're bringing back the Paul Pierce, like he believes in his own messianic bullshit argument. That's fine. He never played well with another star, and he was put with many, just to name a few. Every star. These guys might be overrated, but they were bona fide stars. You know, there's a couple guys we may we may still name or or have named. Yeah, I have a list here just to make this argument. Kevin Durant, almost couldn't quite do it. James Harden, almost couldn't quite do it. Shit, he might come up though. Paul George has come up. You know, LeBron, Anthony Davis, like these are guys that he's played with that he couldn't find a way to mesh well with. And if like availability is a is a factor, I also think synergy is a factor. I think if you're making the argument against Alan Iverson, he was like just a shittier Allen Iverson, right? And people talked about him in that, you know, stat hunting MVP season where guys were letting him get rebounds and shit. I thought that was gross. I fucking hated that. That really cultivated my hate for him. It topped off with one year when Mike said we should really trade for him, and he meant it. So uh I yeah, I don't like that guy at all.

Michael Marcangelo 40:50

I agree with you. It's a great pick. Great pick. Yeah, I mean, Russ tried to convince everyone that uh grabbing uncontested rebounds was like a superpower. Like that was like his thing.

SPEAKER_04 41:02

The the Russ the the Russ and James Harden MVP seasons are my two least favorite MVP seasons in my lifetime. And uh, it's just like I just can't with the stat hunting stuff. I'm glad we don't do that anymore, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Yeah, it's just like he would grab re he would grab rebounds and look for the pass when he could go up with it constantly. It was so annoying, right?

SPEAKER_04 41:20

It was like the Rajan Rondo was greedy for assist take. Remember when it was just like you could make the second, you could make the hockey assist there and we score, but you like force the pass because you want the assist, because you want the most assists in the game. Zach, can you zag? Are you gonna zag on me?

SPEAKER_02 41:33

I don't know. I mean, guy just really wants to give out passes and he maybe he just really likes his teammates. Do you ever think about that? Like he's gonna be. Yeah, history would say otherwise. I I think I think averaging a triple double is just like the most generous thing you can do as a basketball player. So why you could go win your TV championship. I think that's where more generous.

Michael Marcangelo 41:54

Yeah, it's more or hunting. Be number one on your pay, but like it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

And he win the championship too.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

Yeah, it's true. I mean, I don't think it was fair what Kevin Durant did to him, and like he's also got his fair share of criticism that's deserved that comes his way. But at the end of the day, like I hated his brand of basketball, and everybody seemed to love it in that era, and I just didn't really understand it. I didn't I didn't get it at all. I still don't. Maybe it's evened out a little bit now, but like, God, did you not get sick of watching Russell Westbrook argues with a fan videos after a while? It was just like, okay, no, those are great. No, those are awesome. I'm not bored of him either, actually. I watch all of them, but it plays a part in why he's overrated.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

He is a fun 2K player, though.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's a lot of fun 2K players on this list, funny enough. I think if you just like list out your best 2K players or funnest 2k players, that's your overrated list. Yeah, it could be true. Genuinely could be true. You know, I know it's true because now you like usually just make yourself in the game, and like that's a hundred percent the case. Like 2K overrates me by infinity. Um, because I'm a fucking god out there. All right. Mike, you choose two times.

Blake Griffin The YouTube Superstar

SPEAKER_04 43:03

Yeah, all right.

Michael Marcangelo 43:03

So a power forward, I'm gonna draft uh Blake Griffith was on my list. I think this should be like slam dunk, no pun intended. I mean zero final appearances as a star. Pun intended, no MVPs, only one NBA all first team. But like he he dunked the ball, like it was great. I would say like Blake won every sports center top ten and lost most of his playoff games. That's how I would summarize Blake Griffin.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

I don't like uh aside from dunking, like I don't remember any skill sets from I and I am a Blake Griffin fan. I include Blake Yeah, I mean, who didn't seem to break with the Boston Celtics, but I don't like I don't know any other skill set he had through his career aside from dunking. Like that was Blake Griffin, that was his brand, was just dunking on guys and humiliating and bodying people, but like other than that. I don't have any recollection of any real skills that Blake Griffin had. I like the guy. I liked him a lot.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

But But you're so right. No, he did not have any like contributing factors. He wasn't even that good at boards, I don't think, but he got paid by like three teams. Like really got paid. He made like $200 million in his career. It's very reminiscent.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Well well. He had the uh what was the dunk? Uh I always mix it up with him and uh was it DeAndre Jordan had like the crazy big dunks out in uh LA, but Lob City. Yeah, it was like Lob C. Yeah, but he had one big dunk and like he essentially killed someone. But it's very reminiscent of um Jade uh Jade Venon Clowney when he uh had that attack on the backfield and the dude's helmet popped off and then he was like the number one overall pick. Like it's kind of the same thing. Like the dude had a massive dunk, and then all of a sudden everyone thought Blake Griffin was a shit.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

Like they're not, he's not a there's a really like a huge difference, I've always said, between like a league pass player and a YouTube player, right? And it's like if you can watch this guy week in, week out, and he's like super efficient and super entertaining, that's a league pass player. The YouTube player is self-explanatory, right? It's like, yeah, man, I fucking love watching great Blake Griffin highlights on YouTube when I'm fucking, you know, uh one one 10 milligram gummy in, you know, it's fucking great. It's uh it's my most favorite.

Michael Marcangelo 45:18

You watch like one of his 15-minute highlight reels, you're like, man, this guy was so fucking good.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

And you're like, Yeah, if you showed that reel to someone who's watched basketball, they'd be like, they would think he had to be the best player of all time. They're like they're they would think that there's no way there was a better guy than him. And it was like, yeah, but he couldn't do it on like a Tuesday in San Antonio, you know what I mean? Like it's not, it was just that was just kind of his legacy. And honestly, my favorite era of him is old man Blake on the Celtics. I like that's I really liked him during that time. It was like he was the glue guy, you know, everyone liked him having around the locker room. I wanted him to come back for that reason, but I think it's a good pick. He was on my list, like it's hard for me to argue with it. It looks like we've made similar lists all four.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

And like blue, and like your point about like glue guys are usually people who like don't have the talent anymore or like never really did. Yeah. So kind of just like contribute to the overrated.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Yeah, like the point about how much he got paid is is overrated in itself, right? How people talked about him at the time, like the highlight. I yeah, I mean, it's it's a great pick. I was I I had it if I didn't get Carl Malone. Um, Mike, can you tell us since we've now we've now rounded down your team so far?

Michael Marcangelo 46:22

So point, I have Steve Nash at small forward, I have Paul Peters, and at uh power forward, I have Blaze Griffin. A lot of white guys. And I'm about to make my fourth win. Great.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

You ready? I am. No, I'm not really there.

Michael Marcangelo 46:37

So so this could be get a little nitpicky because I I do think he had a generational impact. I just don't I think we all get lost in the what-ifs

Yao Ming And The What Ifs

Michael Marcangelo 46:47

with him. So at center, I'm picking Yao Man. Only played 486 games, never reached the conference finals. Again, Hall of Fame impact, hall of very good NBA career.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

It's yeah, I think it's a really good argument to be honest, because it I think the overratedness comes from the fact that we had never seen anything like that before. And I think when that happened, all of us sort of blinked and we'd miss it. You know, it was it was this thing of like, wait, he is he still good? Uh but he was crazy. The impact, like it was it was the first wave of true international players coming in and making an impact on the league. Like there were other international players that that kind of came in around the same time as him or after that made a true impact on the league that really that really changed the game of basketball, you know, like your your Dirk Nowitzkies and stuff. And I think that because of the Shaq Yao of it all, uh that that whole conversation, if you guys remember, was like such a part of the culture where it was like he's taller than Shaq and he's got this footwork and he can do this, he can do that. Someone should and probably will make the point about his injuries and it not being like very fair, but like now we have the main production line version of him when he was the prototype in Victor Weminyama, and it's like you know, you can actually kind of stay healthy, stay durable, and do it all at that size. And also now he can shoot threes and dribbles the fucking ball between his legs and has like a crossover, you know. So it's just like it's at this point, Yao's impact is is just steadily going this way. We remember him fondly and nostalgically, but really like I think people talk about him like he's he was better than he actually was, and I and better is inclusive of availability and injury problems, you know, and and longevity. I think that's a really big part of it.

SPEAKER_03 48:35

It's like you said before, it's like being available is a huge part of it. And he was gonna be my pick, Mike, damn it. But I think he like broke like a Jersey sale record at one point, which is it's just like when you think about what he actually contributed to the game, that's crazy.

Michael Marcangelo 48:49

Yeah, I mean, I think when you think when you hear the name Yao Ming, you instantly think about the potential and like that brief like season and a half where it it looked like he was a generational. I mean, I think I think he has had a good impact on the league, but I just think because it's been so much time this past again, it's the Blake Griffin effect. You go if you Google or YouTube like Yao Ming highlights, like man, this guy fucking dominated the league. And he did. But the problem was only did it for a year and a half, and then he was injured, he broke his fucking foot, and and it was done. Mike, Mike, what was the phrase you used?

SPEAKER_02 49:24

The hall, not the hall of fame, but hall of fame, very good. Is that what you said? Yeah, hall of very good NBA career. Oh, yeah. I I I didn't realize he was actually in the hall of fame.

Michael Marcangelo 49:35

Like is he actually?

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Yes, yes, he's in the hall of fame. I had no idea I I like you said he only played for eight years. In the overrated draft, I did not know that he didn't get it.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

I think Mike just won the draft. Like how did the how the fuck did he get in the hall of fame?

Michael Marcangelo 49:54

I'm sorry, but like that is probably just the impact that he's had on the game with with international stars out there.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

I mean, I suppose and I think there are I mean, there's the that's talking about the hall of fame is definitely a whole nother podcast there in terms of sure as but it's on the list. That is like but that is like holy shit. Like, I did not realize Yao Ming was in the fucking basketball hall of fame. That is wild.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

No business being there.

SPEAKER_04 50:24

Great pick. I don't know if I didn't really topped that. I can't believe I've had to go after Jordan and now this one where we really like hashed all this out. Um I have two choices in mind, and I really can't decide between the two of them because I think their overratedness is sort of in the same vein. It's sort of described the same way. But what I'm gonna do just for like the poetry of it is I'm gonna pick the player who means more to me to just hurt myself, and that is why I'm taking Tracy

Tracy McGrady The Potential Goat

SPEAKER_04 50:48

McGrady. I'm gonna play him at the old uh small forward position. It's hard for me, man, because like I think watching him early on when I was a kid is one of the reasons I love basketball. I think like his peak was so insane, and I do still believe that if his peak lasted in any way longer than half a second in basketball terms, and he could have sustained and maintained that, he really would have been something else. But he's never won a first-round playoff series. His whole legend is built around that peak. The whole conversation is around the what-if piece. The whole conversation about Tracy McGrady is about the what-if piece. The point I just made is what everybody feels about Tracy McGrady. His game was so pretty. He he had like uh he his game was like a fucking Rembrandt painting. I don't know any Rembrandt paintings. Hopefully they're pretty. Kobe Bryant. I think he had a prettier game than Kobe, but like, you know, the way people talk about him, it's it's a it's a locked door. It's a locked door with a beautiful jump shot. Like it's his peak talents get treated like a full-time resume. And if I'm gonna stick to my overall point about what, like, what how I'm playing this game and and how I'm drafting and the spirit I'm doing it. In yes, he had the gifts of an MVP, and like his highlight reel is legendary, like we just discussed with with Blake Griffin. It's another like great YouTube guy, maybe not a league pass guy, but he's got the playoff resume of a guy whose fans always start the sentence with like if healthy. If healthy, he you know, it's like there's a lot of excuse makers out there for him. There's a lot of guys carrying water for him, and it's just like the thing is I'm one of them, so I'm just trying to show a little integrity by picking him and playing him on my team. And honestly, I'm liking how my team's shaping up. I really think it'd be a pretty good basketball team. No one would pass to anyone on my team. So that's that's that's what's uh that's what's shaping up to be like a really fun time.

Michael Marcangelo 52:56

So there you go. Everything you said is 100% right, and I I I never say that to you, TK, but I'd mean it this time. Uh T Mac is like the goat of potential. Yeah. I I love him. I would like I I I he was on my list. I I wrote that down. I'm like, man, that I used to love T Mac, like him, another guy that I was gonna add. And but like they are the definition of overrated. So I love that for you. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

So far, I've got Westbrook, Kobe, McGrady, and Malone. Uh no, Zach. A lot of points. Yeah, a lot of points. Offensive juggernaut. Uh, Zach, tell us your team and then uh tell us your next draft pick.

unknown 53:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Small four, they got Carmelo Anthony, uh, point guard, Chris Paul, shooting guard, Michael Jordan. I'm gonna go to center, go with Wilt

Wilt Chamberlain And The Tape Problem

SPEAKER_02 53:43

Chamberlain. Uh good pick. This guy played when they had steel mill workers and guys wearing knee pads and belts. Uh, the 100-point game is not on video. We have no proof that it happened. We have no proof that his career actually happened. The stats aren't real. I just think he was a big guy when everyone else was small, and everyone else was just a schmuck, and the guy's names were like tiny and Wilt and Milton. And yeah, just uh, you know, throw him, throw him against Wemby. He looked like a hobo.

Michael Marcangelo 54:14

So Will Chamberlain was what is real, deny all the stats and everything like that, but he got his ass whooped by Bill Russell on the regular, and he he gave like six inches. I mean, it was it's ridiculous. I think he gave more than that.

SPEAKER_04 54:29

I was gonna say uh he was an ultimate legendary stick man, uh uh uh a legendary cocksman, but uh honestly, the those those things might be made up too. Those stats might be made up also. I don't know if you guys know this, but I actually once scored a hundred points in an NBA game myself. Here's how you can tell. I've turned a piece of notebook paper sideways and written the uh numbers one, zero, zero on it, and that's all the proof you need. At the end of the day, I I I think he's one of the cooler NBA figures in history. I think he's uh he puts in a uh great performance in in the seminal classic Conan the Destroyer, which is the sequel. It's not very good, but it it's close to my heart. And he's so much bigger than Arnold Schwarzenegger, and it's fucking hilarious. And uh I think there's a lot to like about Will Chamberlain. I think he was the epitome of cool in the era that he was in. I think he was probably an absolutely dominant player in his time, but the way he's spoken about now, unfortunately, history moves on, and I have to agree with the fact that it's just not enough, there's not enough tape. He's neither a YouTube guy nor uh nor a uh a league pass guy. He's a fucking, I don't know. Uh I hear he was good guys. Yeah, he's just he's just a guy. So um anybody want to zag on the wilt point? I I I know I know there are arguments for you know like uh people who were there, but they're all dead.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

The only question I have, and I I saw this popping up online, was when Bam out of IOHET scored 83 this season, and everyone was like, All right, the wilt chain was the Wilt 100 game was real. Like, yeah, so do we think that like it came out of nowhere though?

SPEAKER_04 56:06

It was like, where did that go?

SPEAKER_02 56:07

So do we do we think that brings Wilt's like either legend or like because people believe like, oh yeah, now if Bam could do it, then Wilt definitely did it.

Michael Marcangelo 56:16

I mean Kobe scored 80 on like 35 shots. So if you have to believe that the that there was anyone else on on Wilt's team worth shooting, I mean he he probably took every fucking shot for that team.

unknown 56:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

So do we I think he did I think he did it. So do we like do we and this might be like going against my whole thing here, is like do we think like the BAM game Do we think the BAM's 83 point game like helps make Wilt look more overrated or less?

Michael Marcangelo 56:45

I think I know I think less because I don't think that back in the day they were purposely the opposing team was perfect purposely sending him to the line to get those points, like nothing.

SPEAKER_04 56:56

I I disagree wholeheartedly. I I think it's more overrated because if fucking Bam Audibio can do it, then it's not that fucking it also my Kobe Bryant pick. If fucking Bam Audibio can do it, it's not that cool, bro.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

I think and plus Bampton did it against players his size. All they did to will was throw it in the air. It was people were jumping full full strength and reaching his armpit. It's like impressive.

Michael Marcangelo 57:20

Wasn't the goaltending like not bamboo? There was no goaltending. Yeah, Bam took 30. Was it was it 28 or 30 free throws in that game?

SPEAKER_04 57:29

Yeah, I'm not already saying, I'm not making the argument that Bam on a bio like 83-point game was like anything. I I just it was like ridiculous. It was just like a complete anomaly, but like that I think that proves the point of like that can that can happen. It can be a complete anomaly, which overrates Wiltmore, you know? Good pick. Solid pick. Matt, you go twice, and does that mean you're gonna pick your sixth man in this round in this round?

SPEAKER_03 57:52

I have I still have center and and point guard you go, I think, right? Because I picked I picked Alan Iverson. I picked George Oh god, okay, got it. Kevin Garnett, and then what was did I have another? I didn't make another pick yet.

Michael Marcangelo 58:06

No, no, you're gonna end with the sixth man because I'm gonna go twice to wrap up our team. Got it.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

Yeah, because you went, no, no, he's right. Because because Mike's in a pick differently. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

So make a pick. So I've got I've got center and then six men.

Late Round Chaos And Derrick Rose

SPEAKER_03 58:21

No. So I'm gonna go with Dwight Howard. For the same reason that you picked my absolute pick, which Blake Griffin he just had one skill set and it was it was dunking. He I think his free throw percentage was like sub 50%. He was a liability out there more than he was uh a benefit, and he was just the ultimate YouTube player. He's just great highlights, great cool dunks, not a an effective center in any other.

SPEAKER_04 58:48

I never fucking rated him, so I gotta disagree with you. I I never thought he was that good. Uh, do you really find a large subset of people out there that like are like Dwight Howard was fucking so good? Like, is that really talked about like actively?

SPEAKER_03 59:00

I think he's held as one of the bigger dunkers in the history of the game. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

Michael Marcangelo 59:06

I think the oh 08 through or 09 through like 2012, like people get lost in that Dwight. Yep. Was he appropriately rated then?

SPEAKER_03 59:16

He was defensive player of the year, what five times?

SPEAKER_04 59:19

I mean, he was defensive player of the year that year, I think. I think that was an appropriate rating. I think he sucked. I think I like I just I think you didn't like him. Well, but you also apparently hated the whole wait something, so I don't even really know you anymore. Matt, don't back down. I'm not gonna back down.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Okay, but my Yao Ming was my ultimate choice. I was so prepared for Yao Ming. But Dwight Howard sucker, and people really liked him. The Superman dunk, the uh think about how much money he got paid in his career, and he never effectually did anything for the magic.

SPEAKER_04 59:49

I'm not mad that I like left center this late because I'm realizing I'm realizing with that terrible Dwight Howard pick how thin center is. Um that's yeah, that's probably the worst pick of the draft. But uh anyway, at least you get to make two.

SPEAKER_03 59:59

Okay, I'm loading my quiver here, pal. Sixth man.

Michael Marcangelo 1:00:02

No, no, you still have another you have another person. Yeah, point guard, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

Okay, yeah. All right so for point guard, I'm gonna go with uh the ultimate Derek Rose. Just never he gets held by players and and coaches and NBA insiders as just the one of the best point guards to ever play the game. And he just never did it. He was too hurt all the time. Maybe he had one or two years where he was elite coming out of Memphis. He was amazing in college, and then just womp womp, the needs just gave out on him and it was over. And I hate his face because he was really good against us most of the time. So give us your team right now. Derek Rose, Alan Iverson, Kevin Garnett, and uh Paul George, and then Boy Howard, the worst picture of the draft.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You said Kevin Garnerette, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Yeah. All right, so that makes sense because then it goes, it comes back down, and you're like, yeah, okay, cool. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:01

You're just absol absolute electric content, us trying to figure out how snake drafts work at my mind. Well, we're fucking 75% of the way through the snake draft. Like, wait, how does this work again? Oh, you fourth, and we do it twice in the check.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:16

I have the I I'll be I'm gonna be 100% real with you right now. This is a very real moment we're having. It happens to us on every single draft. We've done so many of these. A B, it happens to every fucking podcast that does a draft, it happens to every single one. It's you get so invested in your own team and building out your own team that you stop keeping track of it because there's not like a Yahoo draft thing in front of you, but it's fine. It would help if Craig would come and actually fucking produce the show. You know, that would be helpful, Craig. Where are you? Where are you? Come with a timer and do sound effects and shit for God's sake. Get off your ass. All right. Well, actually, you don't have to. I'm sitting currently. Who's next? Zach, you're you're next.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

I'm next, yeah. Uh, this one's gonna be a little weird. Uh this is very niche. Sharif Abdur Rahim. Am I pronouncing that Rahim? Rahim? Raheem. Thank you. Yeah, that is based entirely on the fact that I grew up in Lowell, Massachusetts, and there were a lot of those jerseys uh being worn. Just uh a big name. He had a uh 50-point game that really put him on the map as well, and and he was being uh being pushed around as like one of the you know top power forwards in the in his era. Yeah, I think he had a cool name and then just uh didn't really do shit with it. So yeah, again, very niche pick for me. But there you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:27

Well, well, well, White Howard's looking a little better now, huh, Dave? No, no, no, then yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:33

I I honestly I have nothing on this one, Mike. Yeah, I do remember seeing the jerseys.

Michael Marcangelo 1:02:40

That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

All right, so thank you. So I think that is again, it's a very niche pick, and uh you could not go down any Lowell, Massachusetts daily shout out daily middle school in Lowell. I think I saw like at least six of those jerseys every single week from six different people, and then just anywhere in downtown. I'm just like, do you guys like is this guy good? That's all I'd say to myself. Like, who is this guy? Or is it just because his name's really cool? So niche pick. It counts overrated in the very niche area of Lowell, Massachusetts. That's where it's uh overrated.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:14

You're you're picking your team. This is your team and like overrated to you. So this is what this means. I like it. It's a good pick. It it's uh as long as it's near and dear to your heart. I'm really glad this guy got left on the board. This is a part of the reason why Matt's pick was so bad. I was nervous that I left center to the end, but thankfully, my number two, because I really wanted to main, but I think we all did. My number one center

Patrick Ewing Theory Explained

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

pick is still on the board. Thank God, Patrick Ewing. You're still here. You're incredibly overrated. In the 90s, you were the fourth best center of your own era. I will draft 90 centers right now, and in no particular order, name me a guy you're picking behind Patrick Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson. Not picking Ewing over any any three of those guys. Wasn't even the best center of this era. There is an entire model, an entire theory based around if called the Ewing theory, if you pluck Patrick Ewing out of the New York Knicks, the New York Knicks actually got better statistically. There's provable data behind this. It's called the Ewing theory. And when you watch people, uh, when you watch the best player on a team get injured and the team starts to play better, everybody starts bringing up the Ewing theory. No ring, no MVP, uh, limited final success. And the fucking Derek Brunson, little Derek Brunson, just went and became the best Kick of all time. And most people that watched you in your prime are still alive. So I'm sorry, Patrick Ewing. Your warrior reputation does a lot of work. I think it's it's reputation over actual results. He's he's the he's the five, the center version of a New York steakhouse. He's iconic, he's expensive, he's beloved by locals, but he's not actually better than the best places in Tulsa, Oklahoma. You know, I I I just think he's he's so New York in that way, right? He's he's what happens when a very good player, a very good superstar plays in Madison Square Garden for 15 years and everyone starts grading on like Knicks nostalgia. It's you you heard from these Knicks fans over the last few months. They're fucking insufferable. And uh they tear their own fucking city down when they're given a morsel of success. I I don't think Patrick Ewing was was if you're gonna do the same Boston Paul Pierce argument for Patrick Ewing, you can do it really, really easily. If when New York Knicks fans talk about him, they talk about him like he was a much better center than he actually was. And actually, so does the rest of the country. It's not even isolated to their. So I'm really happy to round off my team with uh with Patrick Ewing. Anyone want to do that?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

That's what I mean. I I didn't like the pick. I love the argument though. But again, just stats, just good stats, great stats, unable to make a team a championship worthy team. You're right.

Michael Marcangelo 1:05:46

One of the most important things is when he went down, they got better. Like you I mean, what the fuck are we talking about here? You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

And as I said before about Carmelone, two wristbands look stupid. Two wristbands does look stupid.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

Looks stupid. You know, Zach's drafting guys he went to high school with at this point. So like hold hold on.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

They're jerseys I went to high school with in middle school. Middle school. Middle school.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:09

I I think I'm I'm pretty sure your next pick's gonna be. Yeah, so my next pick is Mikey from my sixth grade basketball team because everyone thought he was better than me and he actually wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Well, did Mikey play for the Manifest Grizzlies? Maybe we'll get that.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

Oh, just like you know what's really cool about Lowell?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

Nothing. Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:28

It's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:29

Oh wow. I don't think you deserve that. All right. Uh I'm sorry. Mike, anything to say about the Ewing pick or any more intelligence or anything? Uh any any ewing pick opinions now? Okay. Mike.

Klay Thompson And Kyrie Arguments

Michael Marcangelo 1:06:43

At shooting guard, uh, it's gonna be Klay Thompson. I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you a little bit why. He he's never the best player uh on his own team. He was never MVP, finals MVP, like the offensive engine, except for that one game when he's had 37 points in a quarter. Uh he's never the primary playmaker. He's often talked about like he's a top 75 player, right? And uh he had what five all-star selections, two NBA third teams, no first teams, no second teams. I just think like everyone talks about him like you know, he's he's he could be on the level of uh of like Scotty Pippen. He's not. He he's just not so but he's hyped. He's really hyped up. I think he believes in his own hype. The best stat that I found, his highest finish for MvP is 10th. Never top five, never top three. It's fucking 10th. So that's that's my pick.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:42

Can I go on a limb here? I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I think I might put Klay Thompson as the most underrated player of all time because he only finished 10th, and he was instrumental in the Golden State Warriors run in not only winning championships, but kind of changing offense. And I they couldn't do it without him.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:02

I don't know how you make the I don't know how you make the Jordan was nobody without Scottie Pippen argument and the Klay Thompson was overrated argument in the same episode. It doesn't, it doesn't make the Jordan. No, I mean the royal you. Like I like those are very two very contradicting ideas here. You know, it's it's like Klay Thompson was so necessary during that dynasty. Like he he was such a pivotal member of the team. I guess I could see the idea of like he never would have won it by himself, but I don't know if anyone rates him like to that degree. You know, I don't know if people actually talk about him like that. He did just fumble Megan the stallion. That's pretty I mean that's a pretty terrible that's a damn thing.

Michael Marcangelo 1:08:40

Just like imagine Klay's career like in Charlotte, Sacramento, or Orwando.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

I don't think uh no, you're absolutely right, but I mean I just think it's hard because it's like that, those weren't the circumstances. You know, the circumstances were he had to make some of the most clutch shots in the history of the playoffs, and he did.

Michael Marcangelo 1:08:57

And he did.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:58

It's just hard to do.

Michael Marcangelo 1:09:01

But uh in his last playoff run with Bullm State, he also went zero for 23 in a run.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:06

He just claps that's true. You you get you get to you get to stop being good. Like that doesn't like I you know that the Golden State Warriors then rated him appropriately and like left hand.

Michael Marcangelo 1:09:19

He yeah, because he played this next to the greatest shooter ever. And one of the the the the the best dynasties in the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:30

I mean, I know I know people sometimes do talk about him like he was a franchise guy, and he wasn't the franchise guy in his situation. I see your point.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

But does that offense ever become what it is without him being able to hit what 60% of his shots? Like that like he's instrumental in that.

Michael Marcangelo 1:09:45

Maybe maybe I would just say like half of Clay's, in my opinion, like half of Clay's like legacy is Clay, and the other half is that he was drafted by the Wares.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

Yeah, okay. All right, fair enough. White Howard looking pretty good now, huh?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

For for the last point I make about uh to to contribute to the clay Thompson pick, which I I do Abdul Raheem. Listen, listen, listen, it's Sharif.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:13

Anywho, I mean Shariq, like a yell?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

Like for Klay Thompson, I mean, have we has anyone thought about him in Dallas at all? No, no, and like his three point his three-point percentage down there, I mean, ever since the year he was let go, he it's been dipped before uh below 40%, which the only other time was when he was uh recovering from his back-to-back missed seasons from injury. Otherwise, he was over 40% uh three-point shooting.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:43

You know what I mean? Like, I think those injuries did change him as a player. For sure. I don't think anyone would recover a period of his career. I think they would talk about him at his peak, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

Yeah, but and but it also like with that too. It's you know, whether it is you are recovering from injury or but yeah, even if you are recovering from injury, you are gonna have to adapt as a player and uh what whether your your style is gonna change, what have you.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:08

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

But but also I I do think it's kind of right in the the coattails of Steph and and and that Warriors team. I think I think his post-Golden State career so far has kind of shown that like he wasn't as to Mike's point, he wasn't really as as good as people made him out to be. And I think having the great greatest shooter of all time along your side to help give you good open looks and to nail him kind of helps.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

To defend Mike also said it, he got paid by Dallas. So if we're talking about overrated, Dallas overrated massively.

Michael Marcangelo 1:11:43

I think he I think he was every bit as rated uh as he should have been with Golden State. But like once he left, like you just you found out. And it's it's not that not every situation is deep, Mike. D pick. Uh my sixth man. It's Kyrie Irving.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:02

I knew you were gonna pick him. I was honestly sorry. He gave one of the biggest shots in the history of the playoffs, and he's gonna lead off with that.

Michael Marcangelo 1:12:12

He absolutely did. But I think Kyrie gets a lot of credit, like always gives a lot of credit for all the things that he can do with the basketball, but not the things that he actually does with basketball teams, and that's usually fucking light them on fire. He is a franchise killer. He had a great shot in game seven, in a bet she be done, yeah, obviously. But then look what he did with the Celtics. Look what he did with the Nets. Look what he's on the verge of doing with uh with the Mavericks. I mean, how ended in Cleveland. Everywhere he goes, the team just fucking hates him and can't can't wait to get rid of him. I think Kyrie is talked about as like a top five point guard of the last 25 years. I do think he's a top 75 player, for sure. I think he has top five potential in game. But the problem that we've always seen is that what he can what he should be able to do in his potential does not always link up. What it does, yes. But for the for I would say for the of the majority of his career it is not, which is why I think he is overrated.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:16

Where do you rate what how how do you feel about him? Like what if you could describe him, if you were rating him, would you not rate him as one of the best two pieces of of all time? Like he's he's one of the best second guys ever, like to to try to make try to make a run with. Like he he's he's so good there. And I think that's appropriate. I don't think anyone rates him as a one guy. Like he's the most annoying guy ever. But I think it's a good one.

Michael Marcangelo 1:13:42

He gets talked about like an all-time like franchise cornerstone, but like you're right, Dave. I think he's risen since he's an elite sidekick.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

Yeah. I I do think the basketball was real, though. I mean, it's it's like he was built to make late game hard shots in playoff situations, you know. I thought he's so annoying because he didn't I agree, I'm agreeing with you a little bit. It's like he didn't live up to his hype because his personality is so flawed that like he didn't put himself in situations where he could have definitely a hundred percent been more successful. Like I know it. And I know that if he had just made smarter career decisions and and uh and smarter basketball decisions and business decisions and opening your stupid fucking mouth decisions overall, I think he would he would meet maybe what how people some people view him. You know, I I just I it's almost a little disappointing. And I'm not just mad at him for the Celtic stuff. It's it's honestly like I've watched him adapt around multiple superstars. Like I've watched him play well next to Kevin Durant, I've watched him play well next to LeBron James, I've watched him play well next to Luka Doncic, and those are three very different games. So it's like, you know, he's a really adaptable, really good player to play with. Those handles are I mean, I rate his handles in top three, top two, maybe. Like I rate them there, and I think that they like are, you know, and I just think it's hard because it's like I do, I don't think it's up to the hype.

Michael Marcangelo 1:14:58

No, but you what you said, like I think you just perfectly articulated it. Like you pick pieces of his game, you're like, he's he's the best, right? But if you had to rate his over like when you say his full name, you're like, man, he he should have been so much better. And he is talked about like he like he did all of those.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:13

Those are the key overrated like phrases that start to come up. Like BF Healthies, you know, it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:19

I remember seeing Kyrie when the first time I saw him play for the Celtics and went to a game, and I just saw him like do some crazy crossover and his his his handles. I'm just like, holy shit, I can't believe the Celtics have a guy like this.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:32

Yeah, I know. But honest to God, that's all I was like, well, I never thought we'd get a guy like this. That was what I thought the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

But honestly, like from that game I went to, that's all I remember about him. I don't like like I think I'm pretty sure Jalen Brown had a massive game, and like, but that's all I remember from that game going to see him in person was like this guy is crazy handles, like we have this well-known name on this team. I can't believe the Celtics have him. But that's all that came out of it.

Michael Marcangelo 1:15:58

Like, yeah, I think when his when his mind was right, there's there's nobody back, but when that's like when healthy, you know, yeah, when mentally healthy.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

Yeah, in a vacuum, one of the most talented point guards of all time, probably the best dribbler of all time in reality. Burned Cleveland to the ground, burned Boston to the ground, burned uh who was the last teammate burned, um Dallas. Brooklyn. He didn't win a ring with Boston or Brooklyn. Look at those rosters. That says it all.

unknown 1:16:26

Great.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:27

I really thought we were in trouble when they put that Brooklyn roster together. I really thought they were all clocked, and we just weren't at all. Like, I the thing I remember about that Brooklyn team is Jason Tatum's like spin finish in that game one in that playoff series. Like that was sick.

Michael Marcangelo 1:16:43

We were their only playoff series when yeah, that's disappointing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

He was such a head case. Remember, he wouldn't come back to Boston to play in the regular season. Yeah, he'd make an injury every time.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:55

Very strange individual, very strange guy. Sad. Okay, I'm gonna make this pick. I left it till six man because I think it's gonna be controversial, but I think I can make the point.

Ben Simmons Peak Hype Crash

SPEAKER_04 1:17:05

I'm gonna pick Ben Simmons. The level at which he was raided, and the level at which his basketball reached its absolute zenith. If you take both peaks, that's the biggest gap in the draft so far. The Colin Coward clip is legendary for how bad of a take that was. LeBron, thanks. Goodbye. We we don't need you anymore. We got Ben Simmons. There's a reason he was saying that shit. That was the most hyped prospect of our lifetimes. That guy was Len Bias and Michael Jordan and LeBron James rolled into one when he was coming out of coming at coming into the draft. Everybody thought Ben Simmons was gonna change basketball. A six foot ten fucking phenom. Like nobody can keep up with him. He's an unbelievable passer, he's got a fully rec recognizable NBA game. And then it was, oh no, they're working on his shot mechanics. Oh no. Maybe he doesn't love the game of basketball the way we thought. Oh no. And it's like, sorry, here's where his fucking best ever basketball was, and here's where his rating was. That's the most overrated motherfucker of all time, right there. I I mean, I I understand he barely had a career. He might it might we might have wanted to make like a needed to play at least 366 games uh threshold, you know, at or a minutes threshold or something, but I don't know. I feel like it's admissible.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

Mentioning Unbias and Kobe Bryant in the same podcast, this well, they're not gonna be someone said they're gonna do everything.

Michael Marcangelo 1:18:45

I said I said this three years ago, and it's never been more true. Ben Simmons would be the greatest basketball player on the planet if there was no basket.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Yeah, you did say that that was very good.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:00

The basket really was his Arch Nemesis. Yeah, he's gonna be a good one. Well, I mean, like does anybody want to try poke holes in the in the flagging even trying to hit him?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

I mean, from like a draft perspective, yeah, but I think has was there ever a time when he was playing that anyone was ever like this guy's they paid him not to play two franchises, but he wasn't working under his contract to not play.

Michael Marcangelo 1:19:27

That's right. Wait, he did win, he won Rookie of the Year after the year.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:31

Yeah, after in his sophomore year. His sophomore year from uh forgotten about that. Yeah, progressive. Yeah, fuck it, yeah. Fuck it. That's it. Yeah, that's all you need.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:39

One rookie took rookie of the year away in a year that he didn't play. That's fucking diabolically overrated. Ah man.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:49

I that's my marcus russell of the NBA.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:52

Yeah, honestly, yeah. It's a real thing. We should start calling him Johnny basketball.

Michael Marcangelo 1:19:58

I also just want to let you know, DK, bias was on my list. But I I made the decision to not name him because I thought that that would send you off a fucking cliff.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

I I think I would have I think I would have tried to to scratch it from the record because like you can't you can't have a best or most overrated NBA player who never played in the NBA. That's not like that's insane. He got drafted. Yeah, but he never played. Exactly. Okay, I'm not doing this. Uh no one's actually made the pick. If you want to make the pick, then like book.

Michael Marcangelo 1:20:31

But I just wrote it for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:32

Yep. I don't I don't know. Zach? All bets are out at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

Uh six men, I guess. Yeah, damn. I got a lot of on my list here still remaining. I'm torn between two guys, one being more local.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:48

I think you'd be used to that, Zach.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

Yeah. One being more local, one more national. Uh man.

Vince Carter Fame Versus Winning

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

Come on, dude. Vince Carter.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:00

It was on the that's who I was talking about when I picked McGrady. I was like, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

Look when you were when you were talking about McGrady, like I just in the back of my mind, I'm like, he also has Vince Carter on his list. Because I just this is like I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:13

I love both of them. I hate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

Yes. That's the thing. It's like a very likable player, very long career. Longevity is also important for a player, but longevity also overrates players. Like Robert Parrish played forever. I mean, he was he was fine, he was good, but like you know, longevity is not everything. Like Vince Carter when he was 40.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:36

You know, it was like it was like Vince Carter. Holy shit, can you believe he's still here? What a great player, you know.

Michael Marcangelo 1:21:42

I just didn't think that I didn't think the chief needed to catch it stray like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:46

Like he's listening everyone's catching strays here, even Sharif Abdur Raiden. Okay, it's it's the guy's like, what did I do? That guy's gonna listen. That guy's probably just like, well, I think he's like the director of like uh player development or something like that, but he's just gonna listen, he's just gonna be scrolling podcasts. Like, what the fuck did I do, man?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:03

Like his Google pops up.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:07

We're just gonna tag the shit out of him and the uh hashtags and everything. I'm I'm gonna put it in the title.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:13

We can get them, we can definitely get them on.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:16

Please make it an episode where I'm not available, please. I I won't be able to face that. Um, yeah, but Vince Carter, like long career, love the guy. I think the dunk contest did a disservice to his career, too. It was, I mean, he definitely defined the dunk contest. It's arguably the greatest performance ever, but other than that, like people when you look up Vince Carter highlights, something from All-Star Weekend comes up first, not actual games.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:42

That's a really good point. I was actually gonna make that point if I picked Vince Carter. I I had almost that exact line loaded up. That's very good. Credit to you, great pick. I was gonna do it, but I picked Tracy McGrady because I was trying to do a self-sacrifice because I liked him better.

Michael Marcangelo 1:22:55

I do remember thinking uh like when when Derns went to the Nets, was that 04? I was like, he might be the thing that actually gets them over and and wins the championship, and then just didn't fucking happen. That was his best chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:11

All right, man. What is what a sentence is saying then 2026? Oh yeah, go to the Nets and like that's gonna put them over. It's like I mean, that it was a great team. I mean, yes, it was it was a great team. You know, who was on that team? Brian Scalabrini. That's true. That's why he's not in our overrated list.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:30

Is that part of that? Was that part of that? No, it wasn't. Oh, no, that was before. That is great. I remember him in a Nets jersey, even though I also remember him in a suit a lot more. The uh that's that was that was the Brian Scalabrini uniform, a badly chosen brown suit. Okay, Matt, make your last pick.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:47

All right, let me round this out really quick. I kind of piggybacked off Dave's idea of like Ben Simmons. Like, in a moment, he was the most overrated player of the NBA for the Jeremy Redum. No, no, no. I'm gonna pick the most natural six man of all time. There's one player in the NBA that we haven't talked about here that most American females knew the name of for

Lamar Odom Celebrity Over Basketball

SPEAKER_03 1:24:09

one reason. That would be Lamar Rotom. He overrated himself post his career by marrying a Kardashian. Otherwise, nobody would know his fucking name, nobody would give a shit they overdosed in their cat house. He's the most overrated of all time. I'm willing to bet dollars to don't say that in 2010 more women knew Lamar's name than Michael Jordan's.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:31

Overrated by women, the overrated by women piece as has come into play.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:34

As popularity goes, as popularity goes, think about how much he was worth at one point. Think about his life, think about his his e-entertainment career. Like he was literally everywhere, and he never did shit on court.

Michael Marcangelo 1:24:47

Yeah, but he was nice on the he was nice on the heat and the Lakers as a six.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:52

He was a big factor factor in that Lakers championship. Yeah. But I do agree that he shouldn't be. I I see the logic of the level of there's a lot of different approaches you can take to this, and I think we've run the gamut on like all the different ways you can justify an overrated player, which is good, but like I think it does round it out nicely with the name recognition to actual play sort of you know, sort of argument. Whether whether you're putting them like here where me and Mike seem to be putting them or like here where you seem to be putting them at, I I do see the name recognition argument, right? Thank you. Zach, is this out of left field? What do you think of this pick?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:27

A little, I mean, I just think Lamar Odom for the Stephen A Club, or I think he was was he talking about uh Phil Jackson. He's like, traded for Lamar Odom, who was on crack, just like Juan McGrew's TV moment. So I mean I kind of have to thank Lamar Odom for that. Like yeah, kind of out of left field, but it just maybe I once you said Lamar Odom, I just instantly thought of that clip.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:52

So I can say, like I'll I'll give you the one of the most overrated players, but I have to say, as far as drug users, one of the most underrated, like you hear about drug users, you hear about you know Jim Morrison and Keith Richards and all these fucking rock stars, and Ozzy Osborne snorted a line of ants off the ground. Lamar Odom could put it back better than some of the biggest fucking drug addicts of all time. That motherfucker, his toxicology reports read like crime and punishment. That motherfucker couldn't stop, can't stop, won't stop. I mean, he was an above average basketball player, but that was an all-time drug addict. That was one of the best fucking drug addicts we ever had. That motherfucker could put would put some of the best motherfuckers I know to shame, man. Like it's that that was unbelievable. That's some of the the stats he was putting up on the street, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:37

There's been a lot of talk today about Jordan and Pip, and there's not enough talk today about Lamar Rodum in Delante West. This is a good point.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:45

It's a good point. I mean, least most underrated degenerates. All right. Gotta love it. We do want to see how we concerted

Overrated Coaches And Leftovers

SPEAKER_04 1:26:53

what?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:53

Do we want to throw in? I was gonna say, do we want to throw in coaches? And did you guys have honorable mentions?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:59

I'm gonna do, yeah. I I think we could do coaches in a throw a few out there and then a few honorable mention players if you want. So like I would have picked Joe Mazzo because I can't believe he still has a job. Like, that would have definitely been my pick. I like that guy has no idea what the fuck he's doing as far as coaches go. Yeah, I also think there someone could have made the Phil Jackson argument because of the players that he had, right? Like that probably would have been the most defensible position. But anyone else?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:25

I'm gonna go Tyron Liu. He looks like a magic carp and he had LeBron coaching on the court, so he just stood there and looked confused the whole time he was coaching for the Lakers.

Michael Marcangelo 1:27:32

I know Mike has no Mike Joe's Rick, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:38

Good pick. Is it or is he orated for NBA? Yes, yeah, you think so?

Michael Marcangelo 1:27:44

Yeah, destroyed our team.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:45

Yeah, but I don't think anyone like when people say Rick Bettino, they they think of uh they think of college basketball. I don't think anyone ever thinks of NBA.

Michael Marcangelo 1:27:53

He's he was here for more than just one season, so someone saw the first season was like, you know what? It's Rick Fucking Bettino. He's gonna return it around. And then he didn't. His best contribution to the sport in pro at a pro level is that speech about Larry's not walking through that door.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:08

Yeah, but like you so if I said all over again.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:12

Yeah, but if you could also say like Nick Saban for football because he went and coached the Dolphins, but like no one no one ever thinks of Nick Saban as an overrated coach because they only think about him for college. You know, it's got you got to keep it within the parameters of like no, but my my point being though is like you're saying Rick Bettino, but I don't think anyone ever thinks of Rick Bettino as an overrated NBA coach because I don't think like anyone ever thought of him being like good. I don't think anyone ever looked at Nick Saban as a good NFL coach. He's a legendary college coach, the same way for Rick Bettino's a legendary college coach.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:41

Um did you have honorable in Tony? I might have throwing that out there and try and try to make that. He was like a regular season merchant.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:48

That could have been who was the coach of the Knicks last year with the horrible hair? What was his name?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:52

Oh Tom Tipp. Yeah, yes, him. Um Brad Stevens.

unknown 1:28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:57

Great GM though. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:59

Agreed.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:59

Yeah. Great GM though. Honestly.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:03

I guess.

unknown 1:29:03

All right.

Michael Marcangelo 1:29:04

Well, he does three players love to shoot three-pointers. You hate the Celtics, Matt. That's all I've discovered from this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:10

I hate teams that win one ring when they're supposed to win three. So yeah, I hate the Celtics. All right. What if they went to? I'm in. In fine, I'm in. But we we win always. He's in, but he's like kind of mad about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:22

Did you guys have any players that you had in the reserves for your overrated, but you didn't draft? Yes, Jalen Brown.

Michael Marcangelo 1:29:30

Wow. I see Grant Hill, Dominic Wilkins, Chris Weber. I'm surprised he wasn't named because he was on my list. He was so good. He was very good.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:43

I mean, he should have you should have I was gonna maybe say Dekembe Mutumbo because he had he was on my wallet to the he was on my list too.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:52

Dukembe was on my list.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:53

He was more like kind of cool to watch and impressive, and like he had the finger wagon. It was like he was like, well, it was kind of a novelty more than like him, you know, that's why his name recognition is so high. Arvita Sabonis. I was gonna try to make that argument at some point, you know. Like everybody thinks he was this like, I don't know, I will crush you Ivan Drago figure when I really think he was like pretty good. You know, like I think I remember it was pretty good, but Charles Barkley. No, no, underrated. Underrated. Yeah, exactly. Underrated by fucking assholes who say that shit.

Michael Marcangelo 1:30:31

What? Dennis Rodman. Agreed.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:38

You don't really talk about his basketball prowess when you talk about him.

Michael Marcangelo 1:30:41

I mean I think, yeah, I think he became so famous that you forget that he had only averaged seven points a game.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:47

Right. Well, he wasn't sure, but like he was maybe one of the best rebounders of all time. I don't know.

Michael Marcangelo 1:30:53

Literally the best rape, like the best rebounder of all time. Only two NBA all only two NBA all NBA teams, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:59

Yeah, but that's because he kept fucking off to Vegas. They didn't think he was gonna make the show.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:03

Oh, he was hated by the administration, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:06

Fun though.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:08

I had uh Bill Russell, Bill Walton was another one.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:12

I thought about I thought about Bill Walton. I I thought I think Bill Walton does fall into that. Like white guys, white white racists really like to talk about Bill Walton.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:20

I was gonna say Reggie Miller.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:24

I had too.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:26

I had to ring really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:28

I mentioned Luca during uh during our picks too, and then no one no one jumped up.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:32

Too soon, yeah. Too soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:34

So do you do you think then uh he can turn his career around to make it so if it's perfectly rated? Like do you think that that's still a possibility for him? He was so highly rated for the first like three seasons of his so that I guess that's what I mean, is like he he is when he first came in the season, he had like that Ben Simmons like level of of and hype and then l and then lived up to it. He did though, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:57

Yeah, yeah. I think like I I even think there was a little doubt in the draft, right? Because it was like, well, you know, that's the European League. Have we really you know, and then it was like, nah, he's been playing grown man basketball for a while. And I think that that rating kind of came up here, and now I think his skills dropped, but the rating's still here. So I think it's a decent point, but I do think he could, he has the potential to make another run. I mean, he was in the finals two years ago. You know, it's like it's not it's not out of this world, but I think he might just be a fucking fat lazy alcoholic, and I'm just afraid that that's gonna prove the the That's my guy right there.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:29

Yeah, that's a funny way of saying Easter.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:31

I'd hang out with him, you know. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'd hang out with him, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:34

I'd talk about the the two picks or the picks I was kind of debating between Vince Carter was either Marcus Smart or Rajan Rondo, just for like the local green like either the local green team angle for those, dude. Just the the talk around uh around Rondo when like there are trade rumors and like getting all these first round picks and like all these perennial superstar players, then he just became fucking nothing, absolutely nothing. And then uh my last one reserved was uh Lamel and Wall. Decent, decent the hype, the hype.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:06

Yeah, I'm gonna trader. Oh, pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:10

Sorry, you know, but he he was the guy when the when the uh when the salary jump happened, he made more money than anybody. He was the highest paid player in the league at one point, and that's not Evan Trader. Mike wasn't Mike Conley the highest paid player at one point, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:24

He was cheating.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:27

Cal pathetic. I was the word Mike left my mouth. I was like Mike Conley's same the same argument.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:34

Jalen Brown was right there too.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:36

Yeah, I like I like Jalen Brown.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:38

I think he's I think apparently the Celtics don't because he's gonna be traded for Giannis.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:43

So he's wicked turn on the colour. That is, guys. I I'm I'm starting to sour on the idea of getting Giannis. I don't know if he's been Giannis for the last five years.

Michael Marcangelo 1:33:50

Well, let's try it, because this isn't working. Well, you've never seen Giannis jack up 12 threes a game. Just while Jokus says on him. Oh god, it makes me feel physically ill.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:01

Okay.

Who Wins This Fake Tournament

SPEAKER_04 1:34:02

We came, we saw, we drafted, we named a bunch of players that you all at home probably love. And honestly, I do think we were pretty self-sacrificing in this endeavor. I I think we came here and and a lot of us put our own our own kids out there. You know, we were like, that's my guy, but I'm gonna execute him for the love of the game. So I'm proud of us. I think we drafted incredibly well. Just lastly, whose team would win if we all played each other in this in a similar tournament? I it has to be Zach's, right? Because he's got Jordan's. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:33

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:34

I think I think you guys are overrating my team.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:37

Are we talking 2K ratings?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:39

I see what you did there. I don't my team literally would not pass to each other. I they're not. I'm I'm coming in fourth if we're if they all play each other. Like, oh, it coaches my team, and uh like I picked Joe Mazzo as my most overrated coach, so he's just gonna make all my guys shoot, and that's exactly what they all want to do. So it's not gonna be great.

Michael Marcangelo 1:34:56

Guys, it sounds to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:58

You mean Jordan, sounds to me like we need to create a little season here and find out. Oh, a little NBA season, yeah. Run it run it virtually on the website.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:06

Run us, yeah, run a sim in uh in 2K and see what I mean. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:11

Fun. Okay. Well, thanks everybody. Uh, I really enjoyed this. I had a fun time drafting. I like talking about both basketball and like sort of high concept draft mechanics. And here we are, but we combined my two loves. Um, so fun. Thanks to me for hosting. It's it's hard. Thanks to Mike, thanks to Zach, and thanks to Matt. And we'll be back next week with another episode of Missing the Point.