The Jalen Brown Trade Fallout And What Brad Stevens Would Not Say

Welcome And Trade Shock

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Missing the Point. I am your host, Michael Marcangelo, joined alongside by my best man, Zach Gray. And today I think we're gonna really just take a chance to dissect the Brad Stevens and Bill Chisholm press conference that happened on Monday, talking about the uh the optionality uh around uh Jalen Brown leaving. But before we get into that, Zach, how are you? And a week later, how are how are you feeling about this?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Uh not any better. Uh I mean, at least uh at least we have some clarity on I guess you had clarity on why this deal was made. But overall, no, not feeling great.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yeah, so I mean let's just let's just dive right into it.

The Press Conference Buzzword Problem

SPEAKER_01 1:00

We had been waiting for leadership to speak up. Um, I kind of felt like they they just put Brad Stevens out there to be the sacrificial lamb of this entire operation. You can tell he looked uncomfortable. Um just a couple of headlines. This is obviously the biggest Celtic news in in years. Um Jalen Brown is officially a Philadelphia 76er, which kind of actually activates my gag reflex. Um but my biggest takeaways throughout this entire thing was the word optionality. He said it a thousand times throughout the press conference, but I'm not really sure what it means. Uh, does it mean salary flexibility? Because Paul George is making 50-something million dollars a year. So what do you what did you take from the the use or the overuse of the word optionality in this press conference?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

So when you go to try to look up optionality, you could do like a little smart click on your uh phone or or MacBook, whatever you have you. Uh Merriam Webster just says it's not a word. It's not really like a it's doesn't really give a full description. Um I think they wanted to give us some sort of buzzword to go along with this trade that uh makes it seem like they are six steps ahead, that they're playing 4D chess, that they know what to put it very basic, that they know what they're doing, uh and that it's some sort of smart analytical move when in reality it's purely financial, which is a shame, which is just disgusting. But to sit there and say optionality is I just look at it on its like so what the option to get rid of the former finals MVP, the option to bring in one of our top most overrated players in NBA history. Please listen to our last episode. Is it the option to scapegoat breath? Like, what's the option here? There's doesn't really seem like a clear option. Uh I think just the the clearest option they had was dumping a big salary and clearing up cap space for this new ownership private equity group. Uh, that's really the option. That was the option they had. And the writing had been on the wall ever since all these guys were given uh massive contracts, whether it was uh Tatum or Brown, and obviously they're gonna stick with Tatum, but no, it's just the only option we're talking about is not on the court, and Brad Stevens had to go out there and spew some BS to make it seem like it was, and the poor bastard had to go out there and spew this stupid word over and over again. And it I don't know if it made things worse. Like, do you feel like it made like it made it worse? I see a lot of people giving Brad Stevens hate, but I like do you think having him as a sacrificial lamb has like made it worse for himself or uh I think we're gonna we're gonna know how he truly feels about this trade uh in a year or two.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Um because it he's he looked like visibly uncomfortable. You know what I mean? Like he he did he looked like he did not want to be there, he he did not want to say what he was saying. Um but he was talking about optionality and how you know you had to get um he looked at what the roster was and he fit he just didn't think that the path forward uh for winning had Jason Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum on the same team, which doesn't make any sense to me. Like Brad Stevens basically told Celtic fans, trust the process, but just not that process. You know, like Philly doesn't know what the fuck they're doing, we know what we're doing. And I mean, when you talk about optionality, yes, Paul George has two less years on his deal. Sure. He's also seven years older. Uh he also gets suspended last season for taking uh performance-enhancing drugs. Uh what you said in the group chat, they mentioned it on the show last week. Every time Paul George is is involved in a trade, the team that gets him loses.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

It's they just do the two it's the two greatest trades in NBA history, and it's not for the people who got Paul George, it's for the other team that got great returns.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Right. Like the my I guess my my real problem with this is that you know he he tried to use that that word, I'm gonna and I'm gonna keep saying it optionality because it was shoved down our throats for 43 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

I I think if you keep saying it, you're still not gonna reach the limit of what Brad, which Brad Stevens said it. So I think you're fine.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

But like optionality sounds awesome until you're trying to guard Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxie, and Joel Indeed. You know, like what are you what are you doing? Uh so I wrote like a couple just questions for us, but I I just when as I was writing them, I was I was I was answering them. What exactly does optionality mean? We don't fucking know still. Salary flexibility, not really, not not yet, maybe in years three and four of the contract, but right now you're you're I think it's what 12 million dollars that you saved? Um a future superstar? Do you like do you think this sets them up with the you know with the picks that they received um to potentially package them for a superstar down the road? But before you answer it, let me just ask you a question. Why would you do that if you already had a superstar?

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Right. I mean, this isn't Milwaukee and Giannis, where you have a player in his 30s coming off an Achilles injury. Uh clearly, clearly Giannis was that team was built around Giannis, and they got a massive, massive return to for their future. And there's no guarantees about how I mean, yes, Miami is gonna be good, but years down the road, you know that the future is not really gonna be there. You traded in this scenario here with Philadelphia, you traded a 29-year-old Jalen Brown, two years off of finals MVP, who's at the peak of his career, to a team that beat you in the playoffs, came back 3-1 against you in the playoffs. Yes, they lost to the Knicks, but I mean everyone did. And look like they're gonna have a decent future. I mean, this I know it's a very well put together starting five now for Philadelphia. So whatever future picks, which mind you, isn't like one of them in like 2030, so or 2031.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

So that might be the one that's actually a top five, you know, like that could be uh a top five, top ten pick.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Um great. When when Jason Tatum's what like in his mid-30s and it's irrelevant?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah, no, I mean, listen, I don't I I've never been able to root for Philly ever. I mean, as well, especially when Doc was their head coach. I just knew they were gonna fucking blow it and they did every year. It was great. Um, but I can't like I just really like Jason Tatum. I mean, I mean, sorry, Jalen Brown. I really love uh Jalen Brown. So I like Jason.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Do you like Jason Tatum?

Did Boston Trade The Wrong Star

SPEAKER_01 8:08

No, they traded the wrong guy.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Go on.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Uh DK and I have been saying this since we uh had Abby Chin on the show three years ago. You can go back and follow find the show notes for that one. But we so the thing for me about the two is that I it's you can't argue or even debate that Jason Tatum is more talented. You can't. He has more God-given talent than Jalen Brown. The problem that I have with him is that he knows that Jalen Brown works three times as hard to do the things that uh that Jason Tatum can do in his sleep. And it was apparent on this uh on this past season. I mean, he led that team to a number two spot in the East when it was supposed to be a throwaway year. And they played a different kind of basketball. Yeah, they still chucked up 300 threes a game, but the game just looks a lot different when JB's running as opposed to JT. So I know I'm gonna get a lot of shot like a lot of hate for this, but yeah, they traded the wrong guy. They traded a guy who tied himself into the community, wanted to do better by everybody, and just work really hard. And I know in this with the new CBA, you can't have two supermax contracts, but I think they chose the wrong one.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yep. Yeah, and it'll be telling. I mean, it might really show that they chose the wrong one when come next season. It is the Jason Tatum show, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Like, I mean, or when Jalen would come back to Boston and drops 60 on you just just because he can.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Yeah, and it's it's gonna be telling because I mean we get a full season of Jalen Brown and seeing how talented he is and how he can lead a team that was not expected to do much into a playoff run, but well, much of a playoff run, but uh it's yeah, next year will be very next year, I think, is more of you know, it's gonna be more of uh is Mike right about this? Did they cherry the the wrong J?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

So I think whatever year is that's why that's why I I I just push on through through every year. I I just try to think myself.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

It's gonna be more of an indictment on you, really, not the Celtics.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, yeah, I'm here for that too. Like, whatever. That's a win-win for me. Either you're talking about how right I was or you're talking about me. So like that's great.

Coaching Philosophy And The Three Bias

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Um but one there was one thing that I was waiting to like to see in the press conference, and I don't know if you thought if you felt the same way, but they really never talked about the coaching. Like he he said a couple of times that we just thought that you know these two, and with the team that we have with the depth that we can't have with two supermax deals, you know, uh it doesn't allow us to win. But it haven't we seen over the last three years that it's not necessarily to players, it's the fact that they have a coach that believes in the philosophy of a a three-pointer is a more efficient shot than a dunk, a layup, or a mid-range.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah, and I mean, good I know we'll jump ahead here, but good luck to Mitchell Robinson and uh you know, jumping onto that philosophy. So uh yeah, it's and that's and that's kind of the pain I think I I saw in Brad Stevens with this press conference, right? Is you know, the guy was very much heralded as like the next big coach, you know, is he the next Popovich type? Is he gonna be here for decades? And then kind of prematurely steps away from coaching and goes into the front office, which by the way.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Well, he lost a lot, he he lost the locker room.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Sure. Why? Because they wanted to pop more threes. Um well, they didn't play, they didn't play for him. Well, it went to e-may, and then you know, he was you know, couldn't keep it in his pants, but nonetheless, uh it must be kind of on top of having the BS about optionality, it must really suck to talk about this coach that just wants to pop threes, and meanwhile, you know, you were talked about this the you know this future great coach. Um that's pain, like that, that on top of it sucks. Like, I know I know look, like maybe maybe Brad kind of screwed himself and with you know showing his hand too much in the Giannis trade, or maybe just the fact that the trade rumors were out there for so long with Jalen Brown. But uh at the end of the day, like he was kind of thrown in this situation, and I kind of feel for the guy. I know there's a lot of Brad Steven haters right now, but I I don't I think his hand was completely forcing this. And it I I can't imagine, and just you can't imagine having to sit there and kind of defend the coaching aspect of it and say that like oh, it wasn't gonna work with these two guys, and you know that the coaching philosophy, it's just that sucks. That sucks, and we all know it sucks, and we all know it's just BS because they could play a different style where they could just ease up on the three and let these two superstars, and you know if you couldn't have the two max contracts and you had to trade a guy, at least get something in return that's not Paul George.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yeah, I I I think listen, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Um, and it's for me, it's pretty indicative that they traded the guy that was more likely to do well in a system that did not rely on pure threes. Right? Like JB, I mean, in in all of the times that we were discussing uh how infuriating they were in the playoffs, he was the guy that was pushed into the rim. He was the guy that was trying to drive it. It was everyone else that was the kick out threes. Um, you know, he obviously he took a lot too, but I think in comparison to the rest of the team, you'd probably find that he was the guy that wanted to push the pace and always just drive his the net. Um but the thing about this is for Brad, I would say up until this point, he was like everything in O. You know, like he uh as a GM, he did he was doing so well. I I agreed with almost every decision that he made. And everyone, everyone makes a mistake, but this is a I mean, this is a mookie bet's mistake. It could be, it could be a babe roof mistake, but as of right now, it's a it's a mookie bets mistake, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Yeah, uh it's it's not looking good. I I look, I know I it it kind of puts me at a loss for words because I think everyone around the NBA too is kind of shocked by this deal, right? It's been weeks now, and I I still just can't wrap my head around the fact that a 29-year-old Jalen Brown, former finals MVP and for former Eastern Conference MVP, was traded for Paul Fucking George. That is insane.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Basically, four second round picks.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah, but that's that is a a insane and maybe it's the is it disrespect around the league for like is it just thinking that Jalen Brown isn't that good, even though even though he was six in MVP voting? So I mean clearly like there's some respect there from the Lee doesn't like the league definitely doesn't like him.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I mean, and he was letting on to that with all his uh Twitch streams this year. You could tell. Uh whenever he made a uh uh like a sharp comment about the league the next game, you know, he's called for like four fouls in the first fucking eight minutes. Yeah, so I I do think there was a little bit of he thinks he's the smartest person in the room, but that could just possibly be because he's the smartest person in the room, you know, like maybe he just is.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Well, I know well, I know years back he him and uh Kyrie really gravitated towards each other, and and you know Kyrie had you know kind of got his reputation of being kind of out there, um, kind of a space shot at times. But I don't even though I know Jalen kind of was gravitating towards Kyrie and that whole thing, um at the same time, I had never really felt like he was so overtly I know he's taking shots on his Twitch streams and what have you, but not nothing like this massive personality that's gonna get like a target on his back. But what do I know? Maybe maybe it's true because you got traded for basically a a bag of balls and an aging superstar of 20 years ago.

CBA Reality And Ownership Money

SPEAKER_01 16:18

So another thing from this press conference that that became apparent is obviously, you know, Brad didn't say it, but he essentially said it. Like the Jays couldn't continue. It's it's it's pretty clear that the new CBA has changed everything. Two supermaxes weren't sustainable. Uh but I guess my question to you, or the group, and the group just being you, um, was this really about basketball? Was this ownership drawing a financial line in the sand, even though Chisholm was on there saying no? Uh or was this because Jason Tatum, in your opinion, uh did not like that JB kind of took the reins last year.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

I mean, that's kind of obvious, right? Like, I mean it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

No, dude, you put out two Instagram stories six days after the trade, like they're boys, bro.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Come on. I mean, look, yes. Does the new CBA change things? Yes. You know, two Supermax contracts on any any team at all. Is it not sustainable? I would probably agree with that. But I would say even before this sale, like Brad was still in the front office. Most of this team and the organization was still together. So it's not like they it's not like they made these someone, some previous ownership group or previous, or I should say, previous front office made these decisions. I mean, it's Brad Stevens made these decisions and they they gave these contracts before. So I think despite of who is signing the paychecks, you still have to think these things through. And if you're just gonna be throwing money out there left and right, and then three years later say, uh, well, you know, it's not gonna work out, CBA is two supermaxs, Jays couldn't work together. So why the hell did you give all the money? Why would you do that? And then on top of that, if the if you were thinking that they weren't gonna work together and there was potentially a Jalen Brown trade, wouldn't it be more appealing and wouldn't you get more back by having less money, less supermax money tied up to Jalen Brown? And then it'd be more enticing for a team to go ahead and trade for him. If really if contracts and and the CBA is really gonna be that much of an issue, why would you throw so much money at Jalen Brown and then get so little in return?

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah. No, uh it was it was shocking to me, and it was it it looked like Brad was still shell-shocked from the lack of perceived value for Jalen Brown across the league, right? I mean, he even said, listen, if this is an offer that we got from Philly and or we got from Utah, obviously we'd we would have sent him to Utah or out west.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

But the the I think that Utah is just the the complete polar opposite. It's like, no, that that that Mormon state Utah, fuck them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Philly or Utah, yeah. Two opposites.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Well, he never said Utah, I said Utah. He said out west. You know what I mean. But you know, Danny's there, so that's the first place that I thought. True, yes. I I had I I have a question, I did not write this down. Um let's say that the exact same thing happened. Like you still get bounced by the by Philly uh after being up three to one, but Tatum was healthy all year. Do you think JB is still the one that's traded?

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Same exact playoff result. Yep. Both the J's are healthy. Does this happen? Uh I guess it would depend on it would really depend on the season performance of Tatum, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Or both say he averaged what he usually averaged. Let's say that he averaged, he averaged you know 26, 25, 26 points a game. Uh and JB did did this 20 28 points a game this year. Same thing. We let's just say yeah that they just played the way that they that they normally play.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

So no, yeah, if it's a normal season, yeah, this happens for sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Um you think they still trade JB?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah. Because yeah, because part of me I I well part of me thinks that it's I mean, this trade was gonna happen, right? If we're talking about it's an ownership thing or it's a money thing, like this was gonna happen sooner than later. You you can't stretch it out, you know, further and further. So clearly, like the the financial plan or the ownership talk here is you know, this trade is happening this off season. Um does the injury of Tay uh Tatum being out all year help accelerate that or help kind of push it more? Maybe. But again, you have a new ownership group coming in. Why wouldn't they take care of this sooner than later? So they have to write you know less paychecks. Um, so I do think it happens. I do think it's Jalen Brown still because the all the talk would be Celtics blew a 3-1 lead, gotta break up the Jays, which we've heard every offseason about when they were down 3-0 to Miami, and then they were showing a comeback and lost. Oh, we gotta break up the Jays. Then they won the championship, and then then the year after when Tatum gets hurt, maybe maybe break up the Jays and really start fresh and go from there. If they're gonna make this trade, they should have done it last season, realistically. You have yeah, you truly tank, get a good draft picks, and then I don't know, maybe truly build a team around Tatum, but no, uh it's I think this still happens regardless.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Because a part of me was thinking, well, they're not gonna shop Tatum this year because of the injury, right? Um, so it almost it almost forced them that it was gonna be JB. Because I just think if if you the fan reaction, I think it would have been more palatable for all of us, which is odd to say. Uh if they if they were gonna break this up to to trade. Tatum. And I don't know, I know that sounds really weird, but to me it it feels like you traded the grit for the talent. And maybe listen, maybe, maybe it works out for us. But the thing about grit is grit works harder than talent. And that's just pure you just saw it with JB, right? Grit works when talent goes away. Um, and every time that you mentioned a playoff series where we blew it or where we lost, Tatum was hurt. He was either coming off of an injury, he either got injured, or in that game seven against Miami, he hurt his foot in the first quarter and was useless for the rest of the game. So you traded a guy who in 10 years made the conference finals six times and never missed a playoff game, or very rarely missed a playoff game. For a guy that's coming off an Achilles injury that's not really his fault, but you know, I just I just don't understand. And this is less about the press conference and more about thinking about it. I don't understand how you look at those two athletes and say, We're we're just so certain that Tatum is the guy you want to keep, you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Yeah, and you but you'll have people on the flip side saying that, well, if he wasn't hurt for all those series, then you know things really would have changed and you know they would have gone further. And you know, if his injuries didn't weren't there, Tatum would be you know twice the player that JB is, or you know, they would have gone further in the playoffs or won another championship. Uh, there would be excuses for you know for that if they'd gone ahead and traded Tatum instead. Um unfortunately that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

You mentioned new ownership like four times in your last little stanza. So do you think that Bill Chisholm had a hand in this move? Because he said that he didn't. So do you believe him, or do you think that he's just simply trying to play some PR after one of the biggest trades and might be the worst trade in franchise history?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

I mean, has any ownership group ever admitted that they traded a player because of money?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah, Red Sox do it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

No, but no, but do they do they openly say that though? I mean, we know the red we know the Red Sox do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

We we've become accustomed to it, but we I've never heard I think didn't Hein Bloom who who traded Mookie Betts? Was it Hein Bloom?

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Uh God, they've gone through so many GMs.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

I wasn't or it wasn't Charrington. I think it was Hein Bloom.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

I honestly don't remember who the GM was because they've gone through.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

And I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure he said it. You know? Then I'm wrong then. Because what you could get back for one contract is you get more assets, you get more, you get more probability, potentially more back more buckets of balls and sunflower seeds.

Joe Mazzulla Knew It Was Coming

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, I mean um so let's let's talk about Joey Maz. Uh this fucker. Do you think he knew it was coming? And if so I let's let's just stick with that first question first. Do you think Joe know this knew this is coming?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

I mean he had to have, right? I mean, like I it feels like he's very in tune with everything with the team, even if he does seem like he has like crazy ass philosophy of how they should win basketball games. Um, but he seems very in tune with every aspect. Um, I'd be shocked if he did not know this was coming. Shocked. And even if they told him an hour before it was pulled off, you don't have Jalen Brown trade rumors for three, four years and not know or have an inclination that this was coming. Oh hell, maybe he's the one that went to Shamson and leaked it. Who who the hell knows? But um, but no, there's there's no way he didn't know, and especially yeah, especially with how in tune he is with his team, and and and it seems like he has a good connection with the players. Um, yeah, there's no way he didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Well, he has good he has a great connection with one player, that's for sure. That's Tatum. I just I'm finding it so hard to not make Tatum the bad guy in this. Like, I really want him. I need I need you know, every story needs a heal. And I guess it feels to me like it's him.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Yeah, but well, like it's not like he's pushing the trade. I guess like we I think every yeah, but I don't think he's he I don't think Tatum is the one that forced Jalen Brown out. You don't think that or you don't want to think that? No, I no, I don't I legitimately don't think that. I think that you had some.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Well, let me ask you a question. Okay, who's who's the superstar that's on this on that's currently on this roster?

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Jalen uh uh Tatum.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Who was the superstar that was on the roster three weeks ago?

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Tatum.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Oh, Tatum finished sixth in MVP voting this year? No, but he's still was was Tatum finals MVP?

SPEAKER_02 27:03

No, but is Tatum in every commercial? Uh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

No, he's definitely the more commercial.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah, yeah, that's right. So he's the more he's more the face of the franchise. And whenever you see any sort of Celtics player featured in any uh NBA commercial or any sort of street it's Tatum, it's always Tatum. So yeah, like and that's a reason why they could never trade Tatum. Like he is the face of the franchise, whether or not he's the better of the two Jays. Like it's just how it is. Same same exact thing with uh I mean, obviously Kevin Durant's a far better player than James Harden or Russell Rusbrook ever were, but uh but he was always gonna be the face of the thunder when those three were together. Um same thing here, man. It's the same thing. It's it's Tatum's team. It's always it's always has been. Uh even going back to when Brown was drafted. I mean, you can watch uh you got booed. Yeah, he got booed. I mean, shout out to uh shout out to my uh my buddy Zach and uh uh in LaSalle College. He uh he was on video, I think he was at a draft party or at the draft, and he's just like this arms up, like what are we doing? And uh it's just no one no one believed in the pick, no one has believed in Jalen Brown ever since he got drafted to the Celtics. And even after he proved everyone wrong by winning finals MVP, it still was not enough, and he got his ass traded. And it's a shame. Um, so I don't think I don't think uh I don't think there's any I don't think there's anything that Tatum would have done differently. Tatum came from Duke, he was the third pick, he was expected to be a superstar, and yes, has lived up to the superstar height, but is he really the well they've well I'll tell you one champ they've won one championship and in that championship run in the final two series Jason Tatum was not the MVP.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

No, I would say he was the has not lived up to it, dude.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Tatum might end up when we do the uh when we do the next iteration of the most overrated NBA players, Tatum might end up being on one of our rosters. It's a very realistic chance. Uh I'm just throwing it out there, it might end up happening. But uh at least, you know what? You know what the good thing with this trade is at least we get to see what Tatum is we're gonna know what Tatum is in like eight years because it's gonna be his teammate Paul George. I think Paul George is just uh a nice look into the future of Jason Tatum.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Okay, well, I'm I see what you're doing here, and you're not gonna force me to defend Jason Tatum when I'm trying to make him the heel, so whatever. I'm with it. Uh does that uh does that not sound right or do you disagree? I think I think Tatum's got more guts than Paul George ever had. No, again, that's not saying anything. Um but uh I just I think that 10 years from now we could see Jalen Brown have three more rings.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

And yeah, I think it's very

Why Trading Him To Philly Hurts

SPEAKER_02 30:07

realistic. Yeah, no, it's that's what sucks about this is and forget about like I know we say rivals and this and that, like I think it's a little diluted such a rival though. Historically, yes. And I guess because like divisions don't really matter all that much in basketball, uh given how the standings are for playoffs at the end of the year. Uh it'd be I feel like it'd be a lot different if it was like Red Sox Yankees and like or any AL East team there because they play, I think it's like 44% or of their games are within their own division, which is ridiculous. Whereas basketball, they they do NBA and NHL do a really good job of uh making sure that every team plays each team at least twice and divisions not too diluted or you know too much, I should say. Um I think they do a good job of that. So I don't it is yes, like it is shocking that it's Philly, but to me, it just doesn't feel as crazy as say like a Red Sox Yankees trade would be.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

It's it should.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

It should.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

It's it should it should. Yes, it should. Like like Dave and Matt talked about last week. And if you haven't listened, like go back and listen, everybody. Um Elliot, like the Lakers aren't the yeah, sure. There are there are rivals in terms of like you want to put that on on the billboard and the marquee, yeah. But the real rivalry has always been Boston Philly, and it's because up and from 1981 to now, uh till this past season, whenever Philly came into town in in April or May, we just whooped that ass. And it was fun to watch as a Boston fan. So the year that they overcome a 3-1 deficit and beat us, we say, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna take uh that that 36-year-old shooter off your hands and we're gonna give you a 29-year-old better player. Like this this feels like I mean, this it's like it's like we're fucking cut right now. Like we're we get to watch this happen for the next 10 or so years.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

And that's the chair, is the chair nice at least, or is it like uh an office chair?

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Oh, it's yeah, it's one of these old school wooden chairs. Yeah, like you're you you're forced to watch, you can't sleep, can't take notes.

Overreactions And What Is Actually True

SPEAKER_01 32:24

No, uh there have been a couple of overreactions, so I wanna I'm gonna list them out to you and uh you you just tell me true or false. Okay. Overreaction number one, I've seen this a ton. Uh the Celtics are now rebuilding.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Uh false.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

No, of course it's fucking false. Okay. Uh let's see. They got fleeced. Uh true. True. Yeah, that's true. True. Uh they're still contenders. True. I think we need to define the parameters of contenders. Yes, they will contend for a playoff spot. Yep. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah. Oh yeah. If you're saying they're gonna contend for the championship, absolutely not. No, there's no chance in hell. Uh, but are they contending in the playoff? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I could right now, and just off the top of my head, they're like the seventh best team in the Eastern Conference.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Oh yeah, they're getting that play, they're getting that play-in game next year. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, it's gonna be great. Uh Brad Stevens has lost his fucking mind.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Uh false.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Talk a little talk a little more about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Lost, I mean, maybe lost some juice from uh his front office perspective and like reputation. Uh, but he hasn't lost his mind. No, no. I think if he was I I think if he was portraying some sort of actual confidence and and didn't look so uncomfortable, you would say, yeah. I mean Joe Joe Mazzula lost his mind. I don't even know if he ever had a mind because that's any there. You can just tell like he fullheartedly believes in everything he says. Uh but you could tell you that's one of the things I admire most about him, by the way. But at least with Brad Stevens, you could tell he was very uncomfortable because you know he hasn't lost his mind, you know he just despised having to make this trade.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

This move was all about saving money and nothing to do with Jason or Jalen.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Ooh. So it's either full one half or the other. Oh man. Uh no, false. I mean it it it was both. Let's it was both. So if it's one or the other, I I can't do one or the other.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

It was definitely Okay, but you don't, but you just you just spent uh five minutes talking me into the fact that Jason wasn't pushing for this trade.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yep. But now you're saying that No, I'm not saying he was pushing for the trade, but like the trade was inevitable. But yeah, like the talk about splitting up the James.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Theoretically, they could have both taken pay cuts. Sure, and they didn't. Correct. Right. Just say that like it this the trade doesn't have to have been inevitable. Like they could have done things to prevent it. Neither of them did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Um I mean, yes, uh yeah, did some sort of ego get into it? Sure, but at the end of the day, like I don't think Jason Tatum was going to Brad Stevens and ownership be like, you need to trade Jalen Brown.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I see, I think he did. I think I don't think he used those words. I think he said something along the lines of we can't both like it it doesn't work for both of us. We're both stars. You know, like you're gonna have to make a decision, knowing that they weren't gonna pick, they weren't gonna trade him.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

I don't know, man. I don't it'd be wild if that was actually the case that you're you're trying to push the trade your well, you know, superstar teammate and guy who carried you a championship.

When Two Homegrown Stars Rarely Work

SPEAKER_01 36:01

But there's there's really only in a modern-ish era of the NBA, there's really only two examples of two superstars where it's not a big in a in a in a forward, you know, or a big in a in a guard, it's that that work. And I I would say it's Scotty and Michael, and it's Clay and Steph.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Uh LeBron and D Wade. Uh no. No. They they went to four championships and won two.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yeah, but LeBron went to that uh went to Miami to win a championship under Dwayne Wade. Like he was it was not LeBron's team, he knew it. He he needed he needed to be with somebody that had already won. I'm talking about two guys that were drafted by the same team that went on to be superstars. I would argue it's too superstar.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

So you're saying guys that were drafted by the team.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Okay, gotcha. Wait, can you think of any can can you think of any other examples besides those two that have worked?

SPEAKER_02 37:09

I don't know. Of maybe like some random Celtics team in the fucking 60s that wins.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Modern. Right, right. Uh well, Stockton alone were draft together, right? And we're drafting the same team, but that didn't they never win. So uh modern shit. No. Uh yeah, you said Stephan Clay and and uh Michael and Scotty and Scotty. Uh were no, because Duncan was more of a big. Yeah, he's a big. Yeah. Now here I am just like silently thinking of all the most recent NBA champions try.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

No, I I I think silence on the podcast is exactly why people listen to it, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

I I mean they people tune out like half the time anyway, so it's like might as well.

unknown 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Well, the point is that it doesn't work usually. And I mean, we had nine nine years uh out of a run. And I think now you you're left saying you should have had three championships. Well, you should have. At the very least two.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

I mean, they they should have beat Golden State, that's that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, but they also should have beat Miami in the bubble, and I think they would have beat the Lakers.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Like that, I I just didn't I'm you know, yeah, I mean, sure, but like that's also like contingent on however match. I mean, it's a hypothetical matchup we we've got.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

It's contingent on whatever Celtic doctor doctor telling you that Kemble Walker's knee was fine, having to pass a polygraph, because that was the I couldn't believe that.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Yeah, but I guess more like Golden State because they were actually in the finals and you actually saw how those games went, and there's no reason that they should have lost to Golden State. Well, I can tell you why they did. Sure. The superstar's still here. People do forget that, huh? Not I. No, no, you. It it really is yeah, it really is incredible. Like that was the the one time he was healthy for a long championship run, and he uh pissed on his leg. Yeah, wasn't exactly uh for a guy who for a guy who idolizes Kobe Bryant just does not have that killer instinct.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Does not Yeah, he doesn't have the rapist wit about him.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

You know, I wasn't gonna go there. I really like I was very hesitant to bring up Kobe because I knew you were gonna make some smart ass comment about that.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

And I just that's a by the way, that's that is a that's a phrase. It's it's it's used all the time that doesn't mean what it what you think it means. Those words together don't mean the same thing. Yeah, rapist wit.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

I okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Well, I'll repeat

Buy Or Sell The Celtics Future

SPEAKER_01 40:05

it for you. Um, okay, buyer sell, buyer sell Zach, Celtics finished top three in the East.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

I forgot we're still doing buyer sell. Uh sell because I said they're gonna have a play-in game.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Uh Paul George makes an all-star team.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

No. Uh well that all right. All-stars confuse all-stars confusing because or not confusing, but bullshit because it's all fan voice. It's all fan vote. Uh, but at the same time, I don't see any fans voting for Paul George, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Okay. Uh buy or sell Mitchell Robinson starts game one. Um I'd buy that, yeah. Okay. Um another major trade happens for the Celtics before February.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Uh sell. I don't think I think this one's too shocking, and it's too there's so much.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah, but you want to trade separate, you want to separate your colonoscopies. You don't want to have two too close together.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Right. That if they just went ahead and just did full fire sell, and also like what would be another big trade that they would do? I mean, they they already said they love Derek White and they thought he was a better player, more efficient player than Jalen Brown, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Uh they did not. Okay, that's what Brian Winhorst said that they said. That's just your saying. And I won't I had that written down. I'm like, you know what? That he is just such like a like I can't trust.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

And Wendy, I trust, okay? I don't all about Wendy. Love Wendy. So yes, I believe that that they they foolheartedly because dude, he sucked. He was awful in the playoffs last year. Awful.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

And Derek, Derek White, yeah. Yeah, of course he was. Yes, he was terrible. And now that's that's why I removed it from the rundown. I don't I I don't I don't want to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Yes. Well, sometimes you have to face the truth that no, it's not that Wendy that Wendy is correct and the Celtics value Derek White more than they did Jalen Brown.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Uh Brad Stevens wins executive of the year. No, what the fuck? What are you talking about? No. Okay, so you're selling that. Yeah, sell. How many more of these are there? Uh well, I just have one closing question. Okay. One year from today, July 8th, 2027, we will look back at July 2026 as the day Brad Stevens saved the Celtics. Or will we look back on this day as that he broke up a championship tour uh core too soon?

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Oh, he broke it up easily.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Too soon. Yeah, too soon. We know he broke it up, but like, do you think is this the Bill Belatech type of thing? Like, you'd rather be a year early than a year late.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

No, because then Tom Brady wouldn't won a championship with the uh Buccaneers the next season and should have won another one after that if it wasn't for stupid defensive play calling, but that that's another story for another day. Yeah, way too soon. You you just can't uh no, you you just can't do it. No, and uh I and I don't know what would be the downside in I mean, yes, talking about if money wasn't an issue, if if it wasn't a about money, ego, whatever, I don't know what would be so bad about kind of grinding it out and just seeing what happens. Like what's what's the worst thing that happens that you know, even if you let Jalen walk or or maybe get a little less towards the end of his contract, at least you could look at your fans and say, hey, we gave it a try, like we we played this out to the end of his contract, and like we truly believed in the Jays, and it just didn't work out that way. At least you're selling the fact that you believed in the superstar player, these two superstar players together, and they just they truly couldn't get it done. And maybe the people who were calling for a trade for years, you know, they get the last laugh, but like at least, you know, at least those people don't really mean much because you have two talented players that you were trying to legitimately win a championship with. And so no, uh yeah, way too soon.

Final Take And Next Week Tease

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Well, that's you know, that's all I got. That's all I have for you. In the last two weeks, we have done a reaction to a trade, and then we've done a reaction to the reaction of the trade. Um so I think next week we get back on the horse here and we uh we do what we want to do a show but that everyone's talking about, everyone's been dying to know um how Zach believes YouTube killed golf. And that'll correspond right with the open.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

I will say YouTube golf, YouTube to golf is Brad Stevens to the Boston Celtics, just a straight dagger to the chest.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Or the Mamba to a Denver, Colorado hotel room. But until next time, uh for Zach Gray, this is Mike Marcantelo saying thank you so much for listening to this in the point. We'll talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Bye bye.