#22 - Cheap Heat: Montreal Screwjob
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On this episode of Cheap Heat, presented by Missing the Point. Mike, Dave Ray, and Craig look back at one of the most famous and infamous moments in the history of professional wrestling, the Montreal Screwjob.
From the very beginning of the feud between Bret "the Hitman" Hart and "The Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels, to the fated of night in 1997, we look to find the causes, and ultimately assign blame to one of wrestling's most famous moments.
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On this episode of missing the point, we deliver another edition of cheapy. My Dave Ray and Craig look back at one of the most famous and infamous moments in the history of professional wrestling, the Montreal screwjob. From the very beginning of the feud between Bret the Hitman Hart and the heartbreak kid, Shawn Michaels, the fate of night in 1997 look to find the causes, and ultimately assign blame to wanna Wrestling's most famous moments. But first, some housekeeping. missing the point is a one hour weekly podcast recapping the biggest stories in the world of sports with the New England flavor. The show notes and transcript of today's episode can be found in the description box below, as well as on our website, www dot MTV show.com. If you're new to the show, consider subscribing. It's the easiest way to see we publish new episodes. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Google and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to rate us and leave a review of any of our shows. We always appreciate your feedback. Let us know how we're doing. Also be sure to follow us on all of our social medias. All of our links will be in the show notes and check out our brand new website WWW dot MTP show calm that's MTP show.com. And now this is missing.
Michael Marcangelo:Welcome everyone to Episode Two of cheap heat. I am your host Michael Mark Angelo joined as always by rayshawn Buchanan and the EP now always comes up for the microphone for this show. Craig D'Alessandro m right. And today, we actually have a surprise guest someone that is on most of our shows, but you would not peg as a wrestling podcaster. What I will say is that the entirety of this show was spawned by rayshawn Buchanan and a slack message two days ago, he sent us a little picture that said Who would you remove? Shawn Michaels? Stone Cold Steve Austin and trigger the rock. And this special guest said shot. That man is DK sizzle Dave Clark and today we are talking about the Montreal screwjob. We are talking about the rivalry between the heartbreak kid Shawn Michaels my favorite and the best there is the best there was and the best that there ever will be the case favorite Bret Hart. So DK Welcome Welcome to cheapy
Dave Clarke:I'm honored I'm honored I'm honored I I've been a fan of this podcast since the very first episode. And and and I can't believe I'm finally here talking to the real deal. This crew I mean, I'm I feel so lucky that I can come on and defend the honor of Canada's favorite son, my favorite wrestler of all time, Bret, the Hitman Hart and the Heart Foundation. Yeah, I'm just I'm really happy to be here. And I can't wait to get into it with you guys. Thank you for having me.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, and I think you know, for all of us, we we were planning on doing another show, right right around Royal Rumble time. We had just done a Survivor Series show. We touched on the screwjob. And it's been 23 years since that that happened. But we are now approaching the 11 year anniversary of when Bret the Hitman Hart made his return to WWE television and made amends with Shawn Michaels. So we just we would we would have just passed the screwjob anniversary to right that was in November. Yeah, we so we touched on on the Survivor Series show but we didn't like do a dedicated show but leave it to Ray to stir the fucking pot. And to bring you out of the woodwork to to just go after my boy Shawn Michaels. So the topic of today's show is going to be the events leading up to the screwjob the actual screwjob itself, the aftermath for both competitors and even vents in the company. And then I think Finally, the conclusion of this show, we will say who's to blame? I will give you a spoiler. I blame Brett DK blames everybody. But Brett.
Dave Clarke:I mean that I blame Vince, if I had to pick one person I blamed Vince. I think that it's tough to peg anyone else with individual responsibility. I think everybody, I think there's a lot of people that had hands in it. I think there's people that were bystanders and let it happen that shouldn't have. But if I was going to bring charges in a court of law, or in the squared circle, it would be with Vince McMahon. Okay,
Michael Marcangelo:now with Craig and rayshawn. We're talking about two of the greatest in ring performers in probably wrestling history. Right. Bret Hart is a top five in my book, Shawn's number one. I just think he was as an as an as an all around performer but for you guys, when we're talking about Brett we're talking about Sean Craig will go to you first like what comes to mind. As far as technique as far as storytelling, you technical wrestling, you know for me, it's Always been, it's always been Bret Hart and Ric Flair. These those who have been, you know, my mind's most, you know, been able to tell a story. I don't think those two could do it much more than anyone else, Shawn Michaels could just entertained. And you know, he could still do it now when they get paid billions of dollars to fight in another country. That's another story for another day.
Craig D'Alessandro:But as far as I enjoy the technical aspect of wrestling, and as far as that goes, it's it's Breton. It's Ric Flair in there, you know, there are a couple of others. But that's another conversation for another day. We're focusing on Bret Hart right now. And there's no doubt that Bret Hart's been the most one of most, you know, entertaining entering performers in the history of wrestling, not just WWE WWF but any other Federation. Yeah,
Rayshawn Buchanan:I mean, that, you know, that's so true. I when I when I think about those two guys, I think about two guys that carried the business in the 90s. Right, you know, they were, they were a part of tag teams, legendary tag teams, and early 90s. You know, saw Michaels has that moment when he, you know, he's sweet chin music, um, you know, Marty jannetty, through your British beef cakes window, and he you know, you finally go solo. And then you know, Bret Hart breaks apart from the Heart Foundation and goes on a solo run and just really just has a great run. So, like I said, it can't be stated enough. Bret Hart at a tenova wrestler, probably is the the best like, Grant, that's what that was. That was his motto. I'm the best there is the best there was the best there ever will be. And as we know, as the entertainer, but really as a performer to like him, he entertained with his dancing and moves on obviously, had a great a had a great theme song. It was all about Shawn Michaels there. It was just awesome to see these guys go at it in the 90s on. And really I mean, the the robbery really lasted really over 20 years. It wasn't just something that happened to the 90s. Like it was at its peak in the 90s. Obviously, because they do they was they was pq is both peak performance, but like, I just think about two guys that carry you to the business in the 90s. And the business is not worried is today. Had it not been for that robbery at that time.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, right, like wrestling in the 80s was Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Andre the Giant it was it was the for especially for the W Macho Man Randy Savage. You know, with the exception of a few though, like in the 80s, especially in the WWF. It was those jacked up six foot six 300 pound beef, beef cakes. And then you had guys sprinkled in there like macho man Ricky Steamboat, that could work Jake Roberts. But it wasn't until Bret and Shawn had their tag teams with the rockers in the Heart Foundation. And they kind of broke apart that you saw the next iteration of what wrestling was going to be people that could actually go in there and work for more than 10 minutes.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, and I think you have to give an you know, obviously, we've established my bias for Bret Hart right off the bat. But I think you have to give Brett a lot of credit for that transition, because in the 80s you had Hulk Hogan essentially carry wrestling, you know, I mean, a lot of those guys that you just mentioned do deserve credit, but Hulk Hogan was the face of the of the Federation for the entire decade, pretty much. And when the steroids scandal hit, and McMahon, you know, as we all know, became dangerously close to going under, you know, like that, that it almost ruined him. If it wasn't for kind of a bad litigation and kind of sketchy doctor's notes. We WWF as we know, it wouldn't be here. But Brett comes in and is with the with the guys who have left on the roster after the scandal, Brett is the only viable and best option to become a champion. You know, Randy Savage is old by that point, you know, a lot of the guys that are left from that kind of steroid era or jacked up error Hogan era, whatever you want to call it. They're just not there's nobody viable to give the belt to and to carry the to carry the Federation. And then, you know, here comes Brett, you know, like any breaks off from the tag teams, goes on the solar run, and it's and he's perfect. You know, he just completely fits the bill. And I just think he deserves a ton of credit for that initial championship, really helping the Federation out.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, I mean, listen, Vince knew that he was in trouble, right? Obviously with with the steroids scandal, which is why it'd be the first time either Yeah, if you think back in 1991, he went and plucked out Ric Flair from WCW at the time to bring in someone that could actually keep people in the building as a maid of honor, wrestle a 30 minute match, instead of what Hogan was doing in case, by the way, just so that you guys know a little bit of a side note. This is when Vince McMahon did sign over control of WWF at the time to his wife, Linda McMahon to make her the CEO because he thought he was going to prison.
Dave Clarke:So he wanted to keep the company afloat because he had his hands on the steroids stuff, right? Like it was the charges weren't being brought against the WWF. The charges were getting brought against Vince McMahon for supplying his athletes with
Michael Marcangelo:because he did start like a weightlifting Federation. And that's where Yeah, that's where it all spawned from and
Dave Clarke:that weird urologists in Hershey, Pennsylvania or whatever was going on. It's all very strange. Yeah, it's all variation with this.
Michael Marcangelo:I mean, this is another thing right? wrestling is not a sport. Right? So how can you say that steroids are not our should not be allowed in there like they don't drug test you at the Emmys. They probably should. But they don't. This is not a real sport. But I digress. So Bret Hart wins the title from Ric Flair in 1992. He is the guy in that company. You know, there were a couple champions between 1992 and 1996. Like diesel who, you know, Bob Backlund those were just Bret Hart was the face of that company.
Dave Clarke:And correct me if I'm wrong like he was the Intercontinental champ before that, which I think was typically given to like it was kind of a technical wrestler champ or, you know, belt that you would give to somebody that wasn't from the US and you wouldn't usually see that that leap right or am I am I totally off base there? Well,
Michael Marcangelo:it was that that title was the workhorse title right like guys like Ricky the dragon steamboat who never wanted to have w championship, but Macho Man Randy Savage did, he held that title first and then went on to be a WWF Champion. So the theory here here is and you can jump in if you want, Ray, is that if you were good enough to be Intercontinental Champion, it meant that you could have a 25 to 30 minute match. You could bring people into the building, or make sure that they're happy for being brought in because of Hogan. And that means the company had, you know, future plans.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Yeah, I mean, that that's how that's how in the 90s, even before they had, like serious prestige, right. So, you know, if you were giving it was given like to like the upper mid card guide. So, you know, you wasn't maybe the main event, I mean, now, there was some major events for the IC title in the 90s. So you want to go to WrestleMania 10. with Shawn Michaels, a razor? Ramon. You know, we talked about before we had we talked about before we got on the air, but the match with you know, British Bulldog and Bret Hart at Wembley Stadium and some assignment 92. Like, those those matches, really, they were main events, you know, and, you know, so if he was given he was given that title, you know, it was like, You know what, you may not be the guy right now, but you are next up. But also, you know, like we talked about, Vince knew that he can trust you. Yeah, exactly. To trust you. Right, he could trust Brett. Um, and he knew there wasn't going to let him down or let the company down. So that's what that stemmed from. And like I said, he hit on Brett. And it was, it was gold from then from 90 to one.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, and the same thing, right. So these two, Bret and Shawn were pretty much placed on a collision course the second they were both in WWF. Right, their tag team, their tag teams were were identically relevant and popular with the fan base. The one when the Heart Foundation was bad, everybody hated them when they were good. Everyone wanted to see them when they were one of the best tag teams if not the best, you know, you want to say like the road warriors, Harlem heat. There's I mean, I think that it's the Heart Foundation and everybody else. The rockers were the first incarnation of like the Hardy Boys edging christian right, the high flying technical aspect that would that would just really like wow, the guys while the girls everything like that. But it was at this time as you're as you're kind of climbing through the ranks, where the collision course was set was set. You know, Bret and Shawn faced off in 1992. Nobody really remembers that match. I do. I watched it. It was a clinic. Those two could wrestle. You know, I'll say this, and DK. Listen to me, because I do love Bret Hart. Bret Hart could have a five star match with a broomstick, I believe. I think Shawn can do the same, right? But if you think about it, like their careers are both going on the upward trajectory. Bret Hart is champion. He gets screwed out of the belt in 93 because Hogan comes back and they want him to beat Yokozuna at WrestleMania. Nine.
Dave Clarke:So I have something to say about this. So he, however long bread has the belt for at this point, right? It was the year maybe a year? Yes. Yeah. So the yo Kazuma thing is the first example of Bret Hart being treated as a placeholder by Vince McMahon in the WWF, formerly known WWF. He is always and this is where it starts always used as a champion until Vince thinks there's something better to come along. And it's to me a little disrespectful to Bret Hart, and at this point, you know, Brett's always loyal with like, there that'll be a through line to what we say, the through the entirety of this podcast, but this is where it starts. There's stories, you know, believe who you want the stories about his interactions, Brett's interactions with Hulk Hogan. You know, Vince McMahon allegedly told Brett that Hulk says he'd never dropped the belt to you. You're not fit to lace up his boots. He's only going to drop the belt to Yokozuna, you know, it's he confronts Hogan about this Finn says, Oh, you just heard what you want to hear Brett. That to me is the very first seed planted by Vince that that says I can treat Bret Hart however I want this is the it's the month the preamble to the Montreal screwjob. So it's important, I think to point that out because Hogan still got the cloud. You know, it's funny, um, yo Kazuma Yokozuna is not talked about as much as Today as as he was popular at the time, you know, like he was he got really big really fast, no pun intended. And the the, his popularity was undeniable. But the Brett was the champ, you know, like he was the champ for a year. And he should have gotten some sort of respect to try to get that bell drop back to him something like that should have happened, or Hogan should have dropped about to him, maybe Yokozuna, takes it off him after that you could have kept that storyline going. It's the first example of him getting skipped over by Vince. And it's certainly not the last
Rayshawn Buchanan:right. But I think that's how Hogan was at that time, could Eve whether it was WWF at the time, or WCW. Like if Hogan in fear that he could draw money with you, then, you know, you got put on the back burner. And so I mean, you know, and Brett wasn't Brett yet I get it. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what happened. So, I mean, remember, you know, take her comes in, you know, it's not about takeover, we talked about on the last on the last episode, but, you know, take a comes in, you know, it's like, Man, this guy is 610 through 20, what actually was being billed as, and, you know, he drops us out over the next year to him at at a survivor said, you know, that was his first arm, his first championship run. So, it's like, you know, it just it just goes back to that, like, you know, if you're not if they don't think you can draw money, and they think, you know, and granted like you said he Brett was a 683 120 pounds, you know, he was six feet, you know, to a 34 to 40. So, you know, not a small guy by normal stature. But compared to what most of the guys do with money. Like he wasn't a warrior. He wasn't, you know, he was honored to die. He was any of those guys. So, you know, Vince for the longest time hasn't, you know, had to put a postdoc in guys that is small, except Bret and Shawn and I say started with those gals. So that's what happened.
Dave Clarke:I did his draw in Canada. Was his drawing Canada big at that point, you know, like, Did he have that kind of pull yet?
Rayshawn Buchanan:He was definitely bigger. They were a lot of them were bigger overseas than they were in the States.
Dave Clarke:But he wasn't. He wasn't Bret Hart in Canada, most popular man in Canada can like can draw a crowd anywhere he goes, You know what I mean? Like if he's, he's buying tampons at the Walmart, he'll get 30,000 people watching. It's not it's not there yet. I
Michael Marcangelo:get that. No, at this point in time, like 90 to 93 Brett was very, very, very well liked. Internationally, because international fans wrestling fans are typically what they call quote unquote, smarter wrestling fans, right? So they always Yeah, they're they're smart. Right.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Right.
Michael Marcangelo:So he was always he was always Beloved. I think what we saw there in WrestleMania 9993. Was that just a byproduct of Vance going back to the well one too many times with Hogan. He thought he was gonna cash in hulkamania one more time. And also from Hogan's perspective, right isn't bread. And I think like at that point time, Hogan would look at things through the prism of will people care if I Body Slam him, brother, right and nobody's gonna care Hogan his body sends bread. If you probably sames Hogan, or Yokozuna? The whole place is going to go nuts.
Dave Clarke:Sure, but I'm not asking for Hogan to care. I'm asking at that point for Vince to care. Because Because
Michael Marcangelo:Brett, well, the two was tied. I mean, sure.
Dave Clarke:I guess. The bread did pull him out of the steroid era mess that Hogan got him into in well actually got him off of it at the end of it. But yeah, the you know, that that he was representative of Brett did that Bret did save the company in some ways there. You know, so I'm just saying Vince, again, is where I'm pointing the blame. I mean, it's easy to blame Hulk Hogan for a lot of things. He's done a lot of terrible things in his life. But the the blame for me again, starts there with Vince and ends at the screwjob with Vince but yes,
Rayshawn Buchanan:but I mean, do you blame Vince though?
Unknown:Do you play for the first one, not for the first
Rayshawn Buchanan:one to the well, though, like Could I mean,
Dave Clarke:no, not at all. Not. Not in the first one not not when it came to the to overlooking them for Yokozuna, and and not for how that stuff played out? Like I think maybe in retrospect, we hadn't known what Brett was going to be sure, but like I said he wasn't Brett yet. I don't. I don't blame him for that. But I think it starts to set a precedent if that makes sense.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, I think so too. And then so then we fast forward to 1994 WrestleMania 10 10th anniversary of Vince McMahon's biggest gamble in the wrestling industry that is paid off on this the opening match of WrestleMania 10 was Bret versus Owen. And when I tell you that this is one of the top 10 matches of all time, I mean it. I mean, the story that they told that saying any words in that match was incredible. Brett did the job he was he was he put his brother over which you know, catapulted Owen into about a year long feud with Brett. And then he had another great match on the top of the cage. Can't forget that summer 794. And then, but at WrestleMania 10, Bret wrestled twice. He was in the main event against Yokozuna for the WWF Championship and won, but people don't really remember that. What they remember from that night is a little thing called The ladder match between Razor Ramon and Shawn Michaels, which stole the entire show. A little bit of a backstory on that. That match was not the first ladder match in WWF history. It was the first televised one. But it was proposed by Brett. Brett said he thought he and Shawn could steal the show. And what happened was Sean Sean was in that meeting. Shama Davidson said I want to do it with Scott, his buddy. So they did it. They stole the show. That's what real tension starts arising. But just for you guys. You know, Craig WrestleMania 10. What is your biggest takeaway? I do remember that that match happened, then nobody cared about the rest of the card. That match just dominated that entire card to be as you had raised Ramon, who is the biggest one of the biggest heels, the time, that might have been his biggest match to that point.
Dave Clarke:Then he had the biggest deal of the time, he was like my first heel, I remember him so clearly, it's like my first my first big here,
Michael Marcangelo:and then you just you have that match, which went for a while and then everyone it seems like everyone just forgets the rest of that card even happened.
Rayshawn Buchanan:I remember the razor emotional micros match more than even the open heart and bright heart match now. Um, although it was a great match. Like I'm not saying it wasn't obviously it was, but you know, they were to the best of that time. But that that's where that that coin phrase, Mr. WrestleMania, that Shawn Michaels was dubbed guess where it began? And yeah, to put it to, you know, you're in Madison Square Garden, you know, the biggest stage really, like when it comes to WWF. Like now, but that's a territory like no other no other company could come in there. Like that's the fun that's another fun fact. If you know other wrestler territory could come into massive Square Garden, but but the WWF at the time, so, uh, that would that was a phenomenal match. You know, he puts over a Razor Ramon, I think it was it was it was a like, I was undisputed. Match right?
Michael Marcangelo:back. Sorry. That was Shawn actually was suspended for I think 90 days because he tested positive for I think it was steroids. But he claims that he was never actually taking steroids. If you look at him, he I mean, he just never looked at that point time like he was
Rayshawn Buchanan:really is it really his whole his whole career. Maybe except for running over to maybe when he came back. He was a little jacked. He was super jacked. And
Michael Marcangelo:he was sent home. And Vince said we need the belts. And Shawn said I haven't come get it. So they created a new belt for razor. This was like the unification match. The reason why I bring this up is I think, Dave, just just to just to keep telling the story about how much parallel there was between these two careers because they were both in a perfect world. They would be in one generation a Shawn Michaels, and then the next generation of Bret Hart or either or in the 90s they were both there at the same time, and they both couldn't be the man. So now, we're coming off the heels of WrestleMania 10. The next couple of years things get a little bit hairy for Shawn. He was uh, he you know, obviously, he will even tell you that he was a he was a bad person backstage. He didn't have his personal life in order. There was a time in 1995 or he mouthed off to him. I believe it was a marine at a bar and was jumped by 10 people got his ass handed to them. He then had to relinquish the title again. Because he couldn't he wasn't fit to perform all the while. Brett is the workhorse Yeah,
Dave Clarke:I mean, Brett Brett and Brett claims himself. He hasn't he missed two days in the entire end isn't the entirety of his WWE career. You know, I mean, this it's he's ultimate professional.
Michael Marcangelo:Always showed up, always delivered. Which brings us to Royal Rumble 1996. Sean had already won the other one back in 1995 going into WrestleMania 11. lost to Kevin Nash diesel. That's his friend. It's fine.
Dave Clarke:So so just interject here. Sorry that at this point if you're skipping ahead, yep. Lex Luger is already see it stolen. SummerSlam from Brett right. At this point, because I was in 95
Michael Marcangelo:he saw the Royal Rumble from Brett 1994 which is why they
Dave Clarke:Yeah, so they try him out a champion. It doesn't work. He can't put asses in seats. They try like you just mentioned diesel at his champion doesn't work at all because they have that famous. What do they call the house party the house viewer thing? Oh, you're in your house in your house thing that that did like the worst numbers of a pre recorded WWF event like of all time, they immediately get these out both times both champions don't work out. Who do they go back to? They go back to Brett because he's like Mr. Consistency like you were just saying he's a good company man. You know, at the start of the 90s he's a good company man. With the Yokozuna stuff. He's a good company man. After Lex Luger turns out to suck, he's a good company manager diesel turns out to not be able to sell tickets. And that then brings us up to date. I just do want to skip that stuff. Because it's important for Brett's resume, they were so desperate to make it like super work. It sounds to me that they were desperate to make anyone but Brett work that's that's how I view it.
Michael Marcangelo:I think that they did never put the belt on Lex.
Dave Clarke:No not No. Well, but that he I'll tell you why it was confused in my head. I'll tell you why it's confused my head because Bret Hart is Mr. Summer slam. So if he loses that a summer slam, or the Royal Rumble that feels almost worse to me than then than a WWF Championship
Rayshawn Buchanan:just so you know what it was what let's look at Oh, like, because now we already talked about Hogan going away and not being that guy. And you know, he's we're trying to figure out what's going to be next. They were looking to make Lex Luger. The next Hulk Hogan. Yeah, that was the problem. That Lexus press had the, you know, the tour bus and he's wearing the red, white and blue
Dave Clarke:cinema all around the country. That's right. Yeah.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Yeah, you know, so it was just like, you know, he just didn't have the personality or he couldn't draw the people and like, but that
Dave Clarke:year that year that they're doing that with Lex Luger, Bret Hart's working away and gets to the year with Jerry Lawler. And that's the best storyline of that year. You know, like, that's, that's the best thing that we see all year. So it's like, you know, you can keep skipping them. You can keep looking them over, but he's your best option still, you know, because like, like you said, Sean's out of the picture by his own decisions at that point. So
Rayshawn Buchanan:right and i think that's that's testify what happens for WrestleMania 12.
Michael Marcangelo:So yep, so great segue, right so Shawn Michaels wins his comeback match and identity six Royal Rumble he goes on and he they're going to then that this is a story that we all wanted to see. It was Shawn Michaels against Bret Hart. Both of them were baby faces. They're good guys. So what what the WWE did here in in the lead up, they made Shawn look like john Claude Van Damme. I mean, if you if you go back and you look at some of the video clips, he was doing upside down, upside down push ups. He was I mean, he was just doing everything. And they sent a film crew up to up to Calgary to show Brett train, but he just had I think like meniscus surgery. So they got a clip of him running. He was running in the winter. He wasn't running fast. He was like an old man. They had video clips of him swimming he can't swim. He admitted that and so he felt like they they didn't they
Dave Clarke:did like rocky montage right like yeah, oh, it was the big thing
Michael Marcangelo:like that was Shawn running up. The bleachers is doing the upside down. Put it was it was unbelievable. So Brett feels like Debbie wF is pushing Shawn at his at his expense. And he felt disrespected by the way that he was being presented. This. This was the first of what was supposed to be three matches. Behind the scenes, Brett agreed to drop the belt and help launch Sean with the understanding that this would set up a series of three WrestleMania main events, culminating with Shawn beating him for the second show to three times at WrestleMania 14. So this match 60 minute Iron Man match had never happened WWE before. Vince was very very apprehensive to put an hour long match on a pay per view. business was not great at this time. WCW was really just they weren't kicking their ass yet. But they were getting all the stars they already have Luger, they already had Hogan they already had Stang Ric Flair. Literally the list goes on
Dave Clarke:the the champ the championship steel happen with the Women's Champion. Yep, so 1995 1995
Michael Marcangelo:Alondra Blaze, defected to WCW shut
Unknown:up the belt in the trash
Michael Marcangelo:as matusalem on live television, this is very important. I'm glad that you brought it up Dave, on live television, a live Night Show, she said that this title was meaningless and drop the WWF Championship into the trash can. That's an important little tidbit to hang on to.
Dave Clarke:I knew it was gonna come up. So
Michael Marcangelo:once we get to the screwjob, but I want to just say WrestleMania 12 Iron Man match those two put on, I still think if you have the attention span to go back and watch this. It's it for me that matches perfect.
Dave Clarke:It's probably the best probably the best main event of all time. I think it's absolutely
Michael Marcangelo:perfect. And it's because those two were one in one a in my in my opinion. And you can I know. Brett is your number one. tk but he could not I mean, I did say earlier that he could have a five star match with a broomstick. But that match told the story of all stories.
Dave Clarke:Even though obviously it's just you know, spoiler alert. It happened 30 years ago but the even though sweet chin music ends it for Brett that night. It's it's my favorite. Probably my favorite Bret Hart match. It's I have I have the I have a couple in my head, but I think it's probably my favorite Bret Hart match. Like you said if you have the stamina to go back and watch it as far as a balance of styles, high flying, acrobatic style versus perfect technical wrestling submissions, and just export expert storytelling from both guys. So if you if you do have the patience to go back and watch it if you were if you wanted to get somebody into The into wrestling into it wrestlemanias into anything like that. And they have a spare hour. That's the match, I would show them.
Michael Marcangelo:All right, right, I saw you nodding your head over there, right? What are your takeaways from the Iron Man match?
Rayshawn Buchanan:know that, like say it's a top five match of all time. See, to me the best match of WrestleMania doesn't involve Shawn Michaels, but it wasn't WrestleMania 12 it was actually WrestleMania 25. But we're gonna try another time. That was a perfect story as well. But once again, don't want to get into that. But I mean, it's funny got thing when Shawn Michaels got into the Hall of Fame in 2011. You know, he talked about how, you know, no one, really, no one really thought the day would be able to buy an hour, you know, like an hour an hour match, you know, so the fact that they were able to tell their story like you said, and you know, really keep keep the audience captivated was just phenomenal. So, um, it just spoke to how styles do make a fight. And that when you put those two guys together, despite working themselves into a shoot and Brett feeling disrespected, and Shawn Michaels being crazy backstage and, you know, doing doing crazy stuff all over the place, it just showed that when those guys came together, magic was created. And they just knew how to steal the crowd, and they knew how to put on a match no matter the timeframe, but I can't believe it. We didn't bring this up either. On his entrance, my God, His interest coming in, when you know, I mean, to wish this note, listen, I want to make it clear, there's no way in hell, I would have zip lined down to the ring. No way. No how, like, I granted I don't know why he chose to do that. There's a story that Vince chose to do it, you know, beforehand, you know, which I guess you can give credit to Vince that Vince won't do? Anything that he's not willing to do? Hence is why I think that's why the shoe route screwjob came but we'll get into that shortly. Um, but man, I mean that that was that was just phenomenal in itself. Like I was captivated by the interest in itself and it's like, oh, Shawn Michaels
Unknown:coming down as
Rayshawn Buchanan:you know, so it was just like I'll never forget that then I said at the end and when he says you know the boyhood dream has come true. And you know, it really did so by said phenomenal match overall great story told and by said, you know, we really found that the best were still yet to come
Dave Clarke:the face off at the start like it had the heat of a you know, Muhammad Ali George Foreman, rumble in the jungle box Smash. Like they're, they're facing off. They don't even dislike each other really, by this point. Not to the degree that they're going to maybe something's bubbling for bread already. But, you know, I remember so clearly being a little kid and watching this. I mean, you know, we're all the same age for you guys at home and like we're all kids when this is happening like we're you know, we're talking elementary school here. I
Unknown:was eight. Yeah, I
Dave Clarke:was I was seven I think. And I I remember I remember their face off so clearly you could feel it. It was electric. And you know and and to in the sport in the sports entertainment world in WWF wrestling to create something that tense as their face off before an Iron Man match. It's so rare and and difficult to do. And a big part of it, I think was because they were about to do it for goddamn hour. Like these two guys are about new they're in for it, you know? Yeah, they knew they were in for a hell of a workout at some pain. And and, you know, probably both of their best matches ever, you know? So it's and and it's it's sad like, right what Ray was just talking right there. It's it makes me sad. Sometimes when I think about the animosity that eventually grew between these two guys, they kind of never really got any, any any closure, not not in any real sense, because they elevated each other so much. And this is the prime example of that like this, this WrestleMania is the prime example of that being so such great foils for one another, and helping each other out so much because they like you said they're perfect. They're both perfect. Like you could analyze that match from top to bottom and you couldn't find a mistake from either guy. You know, they're they keep each other safe. They pull off every single move, and like Ray was saying they tell the story. So it's like, it's amazing.
Michael Marcangelo:I think the best part about that match for me is that now nowadays, if you have a 60 minute or 60 minute Ironman match like that, the ending is like five to four. That was one nothing and it went to overtime. It took 63 minutes or so for one of them to keep their shoulders down for three seconds or longer or to tap out. So that's how you protect the loser and in a sense like that, it was only it was only for three seconds. Right? It was one kick three seconds.
Dave Clarke:And it were but it was it was there was a timer right Am I am I remembering? So there
Michael Marcangelo:was so time expired. So how this match unfolded was time expired. Wow, right had Shawn in the sharpshooter. That's right. Brett's walking down the aisle with with the title gorilla monsoon comes out and says this match will now go to sudden death. And within three minutes of sudden death, Shawn sweet Chin's him 123 and this is where one of the Biggest seeds was actually sown for this rivalry. Shawn can be seen and heard when he has a man of my ring. Hey, get him out of my effing ring. Brett hurt.
Rayshawn Buchanan:I love it. I love it though. I love it. Yeah.
Dave Clarke:This is my moment, man. I'm
Rayshawn Buchanan:the champ baby.
Dave Clarke:You know, this is my moment. Because Because I you know, and I'm not trying to shut off the hook, but he you know, maybe he's just excited. I mean, I would take that personally, too, if I was Bret Hart, you know, but,
Rayshawn Buchanan:but you should be excited, though. That that is, you know, that's that's your first role is how to run like, yeah, I want everybody out during set me in the red raise my hand. Let me go, you know,
Dave Clarke:could have been a little nicer about it. I mean, braid was putting him over, you know, yeah, I
Rayshawn Buchanan:guess but you know, it's a it's a cutthroat business, baby, as
Dave Clarke:we as we'll go on.
Rayshawn Buchanan:as we as we find out very quickly. But you know, I mean for that for that night. Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I probably would have said something close to that. Like, I'd be like, I'm the champ like, I am the man. And I mean, just I'm sorry, I'm a jerk. When it comes stuff like that. I probably would have been like, now. I'm the best there is.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, that's there was and oh my god, can you imagine if you don't think that that rivalry would have accelerated a lot faster than it did? Man, that would have been too far.
Rayshawn Buchanan:That'd be beautiful, though.
Michael Marcangelo:I think the goal of any of any wrestling match or moment is to suspend disbelief, right is to make everyone at home think this is actually real, like, make you forget that this is all work. I think sometimes it does transcend to the athletes in and of themselves. I think Sean's a dick. I think he was a dick then. I think that was a dick move for in the poll. I think you know, before this match, it was understood, Brenda, let everybody know that he's going to take some time off. You're not taking time off in 10 years. He was filming a TV show. That was that was canceled? Well, he was gonna he was gonna go, he was gonna leave. And he and Shawn had agreed. You know what, after this match, everyone, the boys already think that we hate each other. Let's keep doing that. Let's just make sure that you and I talk to each other so that we don't, so we don't. Yeah, you don't cross any lines. But like, let's build this because this is gonna be a three year feud. So Brett storms out, and he's gone from March of 20 of 1996 until November of 1996. During that summer off, he signs an unprecedented 20 year $20 million contract with WWF.
Dave Clarke:Oh, wait, hold on a second. Fill me in here. Because I thought that the I thought the 20 year 20 million contract. And I could be wrong here. But I thought the 20 minute million 20 year contract was Oh yes, you're right, actually sorry. Because during the time off he goes and he gets an offer from WCW from Ted Turner's company. He goes back to Vince, he says I got an offer from WCW. Can you match it? Vince says no, I can't match that. That's crazy money. Because it was it was what 3 million a year for for nine years. Or sorry, 9 million for three years. Yeah. Yes. So that happens. And then Vince says no. But then Vince comes back with this bonkers contract with all these kind of rules and says okay, yes, I'm caught up. Thank you.
Michael Marcangelo:So the whole premise here for Vince was to make Bret Hart the Babe Ruth and WWF. He could always be around. He could always come back then he never was words. Right. He said that to Brett. Yeah, I want to make it a Babe Ruth. So they agree. They work out their deal. And you know, and that when this whole thing is going on, one of the things that Brett said is, you know, I think you should work with Steve. He told Sean that I think you should work with Steve because Steve's a great worker, Shawn said I'm gonna work with diesel razor hunter and the kid.
Dave Clarke:That's that click has been established. Right?
Michael Marcangelo:That's the quick little did Shawn know that razor and diesel would sign the most lucrative contracts and you know, in wrestling history, the the first ever contracts that were guaranteed money at that point, for limit for no date, so they were going to get paid no matter what. And they would go off to WCW. They would then form the NWA over the summer of 1996. Which again, that moment, is there's no attitude ever without the NWA. Oh, there's no guaranteed money without the NWA wrestling is not wrestling without that. But Shauna nobody worked with right so he's working with Vader. He's working with psycho said, Brett comes back and sees
Dave Clarke:issues later too, right? Was that it would make that
Rayshawn Buchanan:a sign that everyone had issues with Vader.
Dave Clarke:Vader wasn't Yeah, yeah, especially that one guy in the Kuwait interview Did you guys ever see that? Yep, hit him in him and taker sorry to do a quick tangent here. Later if it's no good, but it's a hilarious video if anyone wants to check it out at home. Vader and taker are inexplicably in the middle east on a tour and it's during the is wrestling fake is wrestling not fake era, right like where it's kind of like wrestling secrets revealed on you know on TNT or whatever on USA and Some poor Kuwaiti journalist says Hey, I heard it's fake is it fake and takers like ah you know it's whatever gives a very diplomatic answer and then flips the table picks the guy up by his tie and spends two weeks I think it a Kuwaiti jail because of the extradition laws because Vader was an absolute hothead he had his mask on in the interview, which is hilarious. I love that character by the way, but apparently apparently nobody nobody really liked working with him but I mean he was really good for some good
Michael Marcangelo:ones because he was he had he had the the stigma of being stiff like he would actually kind of reckless in the Shawn match at SummerSlam a
Dave Clarke:lot of the big guys were back then I feel like
Rayshawn Buchanan:Yeah, but yeah, separate taker.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah at the Summer different kind of
Dave Clarke:big but yeah, sorry, going like
Michael Marcangelo:in the summer slam match. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And you can hear Shawn say, Are you fucking stupid? Right, like, so he broke it again. Like it. That's not you're not supposed to do that in the ring. So Brad comes back has a fire match with Stone Cold Steve Austin at Survivor Series of 1996 this was the first the most famous one happened at WrestleMania 13. This one was a clinic. Sean luzia. The Math Math, isn't it? That's that's 13 Survivor Series was a technical wrestling. I mean, it was it was unbelievable. Unbelievable. Somehow. Austin Why don't I remember this this survivor You don't? You? Don't you won't say this Survivor Series. Austin lost to Brett but he looked like a million dollars. The Rock debuted as rocky maivia This
Dave Clarke:isn't this isn't Oh, I do remember that. Yes. Now and a Buddha. They booed the rock for this is his debut. They booed him. Yes, I remember
Michael Marcangelo:looking like looking like a moron. It was awful. Um, can I rocky die all that stuff? Yeah, right. Also, it's the most it's the most visceral crowd in the world's Madison Square Garden. Those are the smartest smart fans.
Dave Clarke:Well, I always said it's it's the yardstick for the WWF. And WWE. It's like if if you get a chance getting booed at Madison Square Garden if this guy's getting booed. If this guy's getting cheered, that's what we go with these. This is the crowd right? Like that's always been his yardstick. So,
Michael Marcangelo:so the entire 1996 boyhood dream run by Shawn Michaels, Shawn Michaels hated he was miserable because he was not the clean cut babyface and they were making him out to be he wanted to be edgier, but Vince wouldn't let them. So coming into Survivor Series 96 Sean's actually booed, he loses the belt to psycho said, he comes back in January 97. Royal Rumble he wins his title back, thus setting up Brett versus Shawn number two at WrestleMania 13. The plan is outlined. Brett is going to go over he walks up to Shawn says I'm really looking forward to working with you. Thank you for doing the MIDI honors. And like we know we're gonna keep this thing going. And Sean said I'm not doing it.
Dave Clarke:Next week, you're not pulling over right now.
Michael Marcangelo:The next week. It was I think it was February of 1997. At the low Memorial Auditorium. I was there
Dave Clarke:Massachusetts. I was I was really glad you brought this up. I'm so I'm so proud of you for this.
Michael Marcangelo:I was there, Shawn Michaels walks out and says we were
Dave Clarke:there I was you know, honestly, I keep interrupting you think about this, think about this podcast today. And I said I wonder if Mike is gonna bring up lol. And I and I wasn't even in the United States. By this point. I was still living in Ireland, which could explain why I'm a Bret Hart fan. As you said all the international fans love them. But I was still living in Dublin at the time. And I was thinking I wonder if Ray and Craig and Mike were in low for that match. I wonder if any of them were there. And it wasn't that you were there. That's amazing.
Michael Marcangelo:I was with my mom and my dad and I remember Vince calling Shawn out he has the belt and Sean says that you know that he's lost his smile.
Dave Clarke:The last smile speech so famous
Michael Marcangelo:and he was crying. And I again I was I was eight. I was bawling my eyes. That's my that is my guy relinquishing the title because he wanted to go home and find a smile. Little did I know that the backstage thing was Yes, he was hurt. Shawn will say that he was he had a very bad knee injury that he was never cleared to wrestle again. Some of it is true. Some of it isn't. The real thing, though, is that he didn't want to do the honors, to Bret, which then set up a taker versus
Dave Clarke:kind of mad you brought this up because this is going to be my big linchpin argument for when you eventually brought up that Brett didn't want to relinquish the Oh, yeah. Back to Sean. And you'll remember he said in the I miss my style speech that I watched today and prep for the show. Here. I've lost my spot the smile speech. He said in that and it didn't look like Vince saw this coming at all. And he says he didn't see it coming and I believe him. But one of the very few things that comes up into man's mouth that I do believe he he he lost the smell of this stuff. He said I may never wrestle again, like he just said because he was saying I need a knee replacement. Yeah, but then magically after this, he got a second opinion and he was cleared to fight in four weeks.
Michael Marcangelo:Well, kinda. So that was in February. He came Back in May, but in four weeks, he did a backflip off the top rope and landed and started dancing around pretty much right and Brett's face says Anyway, I'm not really hurt, right? Like I just didn't want to do it that set up psycho Sid versus Tiger for the belt. Tiger ones obviously. But the the real story of this, of this of this mania was the thing that Brett did to propel Stone Cold Steve Austin to the stratosphere of professional wrestling. It was a I quit match refereed by Ken Shamrock, who was the biggest name in the UFC at this point in time.
Dave Clarke:They didn't even know what they're gonna do with them. No, they're like, Oh, wait, we got them signed up. I mean, I guess make them a ref. Like, they were
Michael Marcangelo:trying to legitimize this this match and make it feel as real as possible. And
Dave Clarke:I get it. Yeah, totally. And the beginning of the kind of, and you know, as you know, and like I'm a big UFC MMA guy. And we haven't had an opportunity to do a ton of UFC preview stuff. But this is the beginning of the of the crossover, kind of in the meta crossover. You know that the ideological crossover between the UFC and the WWE and long before you young kids at home, listening long before Ronda Rousey makes that transition Ken Ken Shamrock goes over there. He had just no idea what to do with this guy. And which is what I think you guys are saying what everybody was saying when Ron Rhonda went over there, which is I think it's gonna be a Ken Shamrock situation. You know, it's like they're, it's a different sport. It's a different set of set of skills. And yeah, Ken was a square peg in a round hole over there, but I love that he's the referee.
Unknown:I think that was the point where john mccain was still calling you like human cockfighting stuff like
Dave Clarke:yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, the UFC was in its infancy but it and you know, you say it legitimizes it I think it the WWE letting a UFC guy and legitimizes the UFC a lot you know, and and helps a lot of fans crossover at this point and Ken Shamrock being at that match, it's a lucky right place right time for for him and for the whole thing, because what an insane finish. You know, that sharpshooter finish? I'll let you keep going on it. But yeah, I just wanted to interject that Ken Shamrock stuff. It's so wild to me when you see his face popping up in the WWF.
Michael Marcangelo:A little backstory to this is that this is still 1997 right? So this is still PG WWF. Right. But there's not attitude ever. They were they were they were told Brett and Steve are told there's no color meaning no blood. Brett said this match needs blood. Steve didn't want awesome did not want to do it himself. So what Brett did,
Dave Clarke:Austin wouldn't wouldn't jig himself, right. Like he wouldn't blame
Michael Marcangelo:ourselves. At this point. He did. He was pretty uncomfortable with it.
Dave Clarke:Right? And they and the WWF claims that they they were in business for themselves that night on this on this blood, right? Yeah. That doesn't make sense to me. Because if the plot was that he was supposed to pass out from blood loss. That wasn't
Michael Marcangelo:that wasn't. It wasn't no he was he was supposed to never give up like and not tap out to make him look like a badass. But what happened was, Brett said like this match needs color. And there there are numerous reports. I don't know which one's true that he either hid a razor blade in his guns in his in his wrist tape or in his in his boots. And he knew the perfect moment to do it. And that gave us the probably the most iconic moment in wrestling history is once you're lost in, puts both hands down, reaches up and the blood just drips down his face. And then he's out cold. And Bret Hart is deemed the winner. So what do you take? I mean, re DK like, what are your takeaways from this
Rayshawn Buchanan:match? Even though it says at WrestleMania 14, like oh, like it's Dustin era Stone Cold Stone Cold? Wasn't really 14, it really was starting to really dawn Dawson era. And, you know, I said we get thank, you know, we could think Bret Hart because, you know, obviously, you know, we're stone cold, you know, his iconic moment really was the year before the King of the Ring. You know, when he you know, he goes over against Jake Roberts. And he comes out there with Michael Hayes from the fabulous freebirds He's like, Oh, he's like, you know, talk about your songs and you would thump your Bibles. You know, you say your prayers or whatever. But Austin 316 years ago just whipped your eyes and you know, just kind of just just goes you know, that kind of catapults them from there. Thank God, he got rid of that theme. That Theme Music My God. No, that's awful. No, that I mean that that match with with Bret Hart is just so that Bret Hart really was intelligent about the business. I know we kind of talked about before getting on here about not having the business savvy aspect to it all the way down. But just from the wrestling IQ so to speak. I'm not sure more people had more of a wrestling IQ than Bret Hart to know that that matching to blood to know that Austin was a good worker and know that Austin could be someone that drew money. Now I don't know if he envisioned if Austin would win he became later on that year and then when he became a 98, and, and so on and so forth. But to have that to have that foresight to say you know what, I could work with this guy. This guy's a hell of a worker. Let's Do it like this was phenomenal thinking on Bret Hart's part. And you know as a wrestling fan I say thank you because it catapulted us into one of the greatest areas of the greatest era and wrestling history.
Michael Marcangelo:And like what I'll say DK before you give your thoughts in this match because we do want to get to the screwjob here is Austin never beat Brett. But that doesn't matter Brett made Austin look like a million bucks both times different ways. The loser of that match is the most notable takeaway from that match. So if that's what you remember, you don't remember Brett winning from the sharpshooter. You remember Austin struggling to find out about the blood dripping down his face. That's how good Brett was.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, it was a great hand off you know, it was it was an honorable thing for for Brett to do to elevate them to that point it's the best double turn in the history of the WWF Yep, it's it's launches Stone Cold Steve Austin without this match and without Bret Hart's know how and elbow grease and ability to to fight a fight to wrestle a match that is not in his wheelhouse you would think on paper. This is the kind of this is not the kind of mash he would put Bret Hart in. But you wouldn't know it by looking at the by looking at the at the tape. He goes in there and puts on such a display such as selfless display for Stone Cold Steve Austin, and creates this iconic moment just completely takes himself out of it. Like a lot of the criticism that you'll that will get into about the screwjob and I know we have to get there soon. is a lot of the criticism from the anti Bret Hart camp is about his ego. You know, Brett thought he was bigger than this. You know, Shawn Michaels is on record saying Bret Hart thought he was too big for the for the company, all this stuff. That is not a guy to me with an ego. You know, Bret Hart went in there and elevated some Cold Steve Austin because as you said he saw something in him. He he knew he was good for the company. And he knew the kind of profile and storytelling
Michael Marcangelo:Firstly, I would say that he never put him over. So Brett was a mark for Brett.
Dave Clarke:But but but i think that i Yeah, I think that's a good point. But I think and like you know he he did end up winning the winning the match but I think he was as you guys both just said he knew what he was doing. He knew that he was elevating stone cold that night and and i think that i think that that's important in it, you know, it's one of the it's one of the bloodiest matches of all time, which is not something you really think of immediately Bret Hart in bloody matches, you know, I mean, a prior you think Ric Flair, you know, like was one of the end like Bret Hart's been on record criticizing the Ric Flair is over blading on on what is he what is it what it was was that he said he said he's unsubtle with his with Ric Flair. plating, you know, and he is he is, I mean, let's be honest, but and it's one of the most subtle blades ever. And you know, I know you're not supposed to save lading and I know that there's all this you know and it's a cliche to say all this stuff about about what Brett did, but you know, signature forefinger leg lock and in that in that match from Brad like he does all the stuff that you expect Bret Hart to do. But it's the stone cold match that's a stone cold sea monster match and it's and it's it's it's Yeah, sure it's in both of their top five of all time but it's it's more prominent in in a Hall of Fame match for stone cold.
Michael Marcangelo:I will say the the knock on Brett, for me and for a lot of people that are in the Shawn camp is that Brett thought wins and losses mattered in wrestling. I don't they don't. It is a it is a work. You're saying
Dave Clarke:Okay, now we're gonna argue. So thank you. We're finally here. You're saying? You're saying that Brett thought that wins and losses mattered in wrestling and they agreed that they don't matter. I do you agree that they don't matter. But your your evidence to that is that he wouldn't put Shawn over. And the reason he wouldn't put Shawn over is because Shawn said he wouldn't put him over first
Michael Marcangelo:or Austin.
Dave Clarke:Well, but that's a dip what we just talked about how good it was
Michael Marcangelo:what but he but he didn't do it. And I mean, his His most notable WrestleMania loss was to his brother and it was a roll up. His most notable SummerSlam loss was to his brother in law. And it was a roll up
Dave Clarke:in the first in the first five years of Brett's career Brett was it was bordering on being a guy known for putting people over. And if you if you're early,
Michael Marcangelo:if you're you're a tag team, it's you're supposed to do like there's wins or losses actually don't matter.
Dave Clarke:Okay, fine. But what, let me just sit up in my chair here. Now we're doing this we're having a nice chat. Now we're doing this. If you're early in your wrestling career, you don't want to get that reputation. If you go on a solo run, especially you don't want to get that reputation as somebody who puts puts people over too much. Red did that a lot early in his career, even even during his solo runs. Okay, he gave up the belt a few times. He put people over, he did everything he was supposed to do. He's an undeniably good company, man. When he even when he doesn't put Stone Cold over as we just talked about at length. He elevates stone cold. He offers to put Shawn Michaels over and says I'll do it when it whatever needs to be done and he He walks up to in locker room, he says I'll do whatever needs to be done. Like just so you know, I'm a professional, you can count on me. This is verified from both guys. And Sean Michael says, that's great. I appreciate it. But just so you know, I'm not going to do the same for you. And that's what leads Brett to say, Okay, well, then I'm never going to put him over, you know, I'm
Michael Marcangelo:just not going to do it. But also, at that time, neither of them had creative control. So they can say whatever they want the man the man writing the script was not in the room. Sure,
Dave Clarke:I but at the end of Brett's query had creative control which leads were reasonable as they always say reasonable creative control at the end of his career in the in the WWE before he goes to the before he goes to the Turner, you know, that that WCW promotion that shall not be named. You know, and he's and he's, you can put you know, and I think he knew, too, and I will say this, if you're going to criticize Brett, you know, he didn't fit in WCW at all, you know, he didn't work at all, and they didn't use him. Right. And he said,
Michael Marcangelo:not to cut you off. WCW does not know what to do with Bret the Hitman Hart.
Dave Clarke:No, they absolutely don't. Right with the character. Yeah, he was totally right. And but he also was a loyal guy, he wanted to stick around to the WWF and in the picture that Vince McMahon painted him, and I'll get I'll get back to the other thing a second, the picture that Vince McMahon painted him was was would have been under undeniably what's the word I'm looking for? Like, just you would have been greedy for that any any career would have been greedy for that. Like I'm gonna be the Babe Ruth of this organization like he pins painted that picture. He didn't ask him to but to get back to your point, not putting people over.
Michael Marcangelo:He's a second generation. No, no, no, I didn't say not pulling people over. I said because he made people bigger stars. But But, but he never lost to them. You know what I mean? Like, genius. When he when he was a man of Well, that's that's that's a good thing for a heel like Ric Flair made baby faces, but never lost them as
Dave Clarke:they made a beat. They made him be a heel at the end. It ruined him.
Michael Marcangelo:Except in Canada. I mean, he was.
Dave Clarke:I mean, he can't be he can't be healing can't Well, the reason they made him heal as we all know. I mean, this is we're beating a dead horse here. But the reason they made that he became a heel is because he turned around to the entire American audience and said, You guys suck. Yeah, but that you know, and he's never he's never coming back from that. But
Michael Marcangelo:conventional wisdom would dictate that a baby face doesn't make the heel look better by beating them to heel makes the baby face look better. Rather than a great baby face.
Dave Clarke:It makes a great mix a great heel and a great heel makes a great baby face. One needs the other one hand washes the other. We all know this. The point is, Brett knew he was never going to be a good heel. And he tried to say is a fantastic heel. I mean, he was you think Brett was a good heel?
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, I think so. I think Brett was mediocre at best on the microphone before 1997. But when they took off the handcuffs, and they admitted, and they brought that like the Heart Foundation, it was like, You know what, you know, America, like is so far below Canada. I'm not even gonna waste light like that. That's what you're supposed to do. People were paying to see him get his ass kicked. And it didn't happen. That mean, I
Dave Clarke:don't remember it like that at all. I mean, I feel like he I feel like that was completely answered. I mean, it might be because of a Bret Hart Homer, but it might be it but i think that's completely antithetical to his, to his message to the kind of guy he was. It didn't make it didn't feel authentic to me. It didn't match up with the criticisms he had of Shawn Michaels in the first place, like his legitimate criticism, not as works when he was saying, you know, he's doing vulgar stuff in the ring, and you know, why are they cheering for heels now like Wrestling's changing, like all these comments he was making.
Michael Marcangelo:Why? What do you think about it? It was perfect because Brett's character didn't change. He painted the picture on the microphone that they abandoned him. And all he ever did was
Dave Clarke:was Brett's character didn't change though Brett's character didn't change his character got sold out. You know, the hit the Hitman Hart got sold out by Vince McMahon? Because I
Michael Marcangelo:think it's one of the only times I don't
Dave Clarke:know what to do with you. It was lazy, you know, I don't know what to do with you. I guess we'll turn you he'll
Michael Marcangelo:I think it was I think it's one of the only times in the wrestling business where a babyface turns here without doing anything drastically different. And and it did work because he was going against Austin from from pretty much March or April until July which was the Canadian Stampede pay per view which is in obviously Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Dave Clarke:Okay, do that do the do the screw job. And then we'll get into this because because we got it we have to frame it with the screwjob backstory. So
Michael Marcangelo:do the screw job. When you say the screw job, just get to it.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, we should just get to it because now we're now we're talking about what like what what happened. Okay, because we can go I want to go back and reference this stuff in my arguments for the for the screwjob. So let's just frame it, I think.
Michael Marcangelo:Okay, well, now, without further ado, let's just get to the Montreal screwjob. So, the summer of 97 was filled with with awful, awful, awful promos by both Bret and Shawn to each other. They both said that they would never do. They both did it. There was backstage fights that happened. Which brings us to I believe it was September of 1997 or Vince McMahon. tells Brett Hey, listen. I don't know if I'm going to be able to pay you what I told him and we'll pay you because we're going to go bankrupt. Turner is kicking our ass. And April are no sorry. In September of 1996. It started an 82 week string of consecutive ratings, defeats by WCW, Monday night show to WWF raw. And this was a lie. Just you know,
Dave Clarke:I mean, we know this now.
Michael Marcangelo:Well, hold on. No, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't that
Rayshawn Buchanan:WCW was really killing them. And
Dave Clarke:they were losing the ratings. But but it the reason that Vince McMahon wanted to get rid of Bret Hart's contract, you guys know this? I can see it in your faces. Oh, no. The reason you want to get rid of his contract is because he was planning on going public with the WWF. At the time, no, that didn't happen for two years for another two years. But he was but they told him that he should get rid of all his long term obligations in order to go public to make him more appetizing to investors. But in
Michael Marcangelo:1997, WWE WWF was not was not profitable. It was 19 1998 is when they went public, right? So they went public in
Dave Clarke:99. So two years later, they they went public, right? He's saying we don't have the money to to back you. I don't buy that. I just do not buy that from Vince McMahon.
Michael Marcangelo:What do you think about well, hold on, but in 1997, WWE turned, generated, I think it was like $134 million in revenue. They had 100. And like, they had $120 million. And, and and pay so they did not make any money. They made like $14 million as a company in 1998 99. They made $530 million.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, their revenue was down. But that doesn't mean that they were in they weren't in the red.
Michael Marcangelo:Well, it was a fit. Well, they didn't have any stakeholders. It was just Vince, he did not there was no, it was a family run company at that point.
Dave Clarke:But But he knew that that is he knew his plan was to first of all, I think he was mad that he got backed into a corner by Brett with it with the WCW contract. So as a matter of principle that helped negotiate. Yeah, but second of all, nobody nobody put a gun to Vince McMahon's head to go and offer him that ludicrous contract that that country be ludicrous. Now, that country to be ludicrous in any sport. 20 years created creative control, like lower workload that was part of it. Right, like 190 days or something? Yeah, 185 days, or whatever it was. He gave him the whole farm, you know, and he was mad about it, you know, and that's not that's not Brett's fault. Like that's he couldn't honor his contract. I don't get that if that's now. This is 1997. Right? If that's now in any sport in in WWF, whatever. In the Twitter era, every single person is going on Twitter gone. Sorry, Vince, you know, don't give a shit. You're the one who signed you any. And he went out of his way to give Brett that contract.
Michael Marcangelo:I think that's because, you know, I think that contract was a byproduct of Vince being screwed by, by the talent that he created WWF before he didn't want to lose another star. Right. So he wanted to lock it up. But But you do need to realize 1987 9596 97 were some of the worst years in the WWF history. ratings were down, live, attendance was down, everything was down. It doesn't go it doesn't really get better, until after screwjob. But before we get to that, Vince says I can't pay you what I want to do. I think I'm going to have to breach the contract he helps Brett with, with conversations with Eric Bischoff and WCW secure a three year deal for $9 million. The last part of Brett's agreeing with WWE in his last 30 days is that he has creative control, meaning he does not have to do what he does not have What does
Dave Clarke:not want to do. Or you left one thing out, by the way. When he offered Brett that 20 year contract, he said and I quote, I'll never give you a reason to ever want to leave. Yep. Right. I just want that on record. He said that right to Brett, you know, and Bret Hart up until this point has not done anything shady. He's not gone against his word. He's he's he's been a complete straight shooter. He's been loyal to the company just want that established. I've
Michael Marcangelo:never heard anyone in the ring. He's the only wrestler that I know of. cause injury,
Dave Clarke:technically perfect. He's been a good company, man. The only criticism you could maybe level Adam is that he hasn't. You know, he didn't win last day. Ray. Do you agree? No, there's no blemish on his record. Mark for himself. Yeah,
Rayshawn Buchanan:he's definitely a big fan of sounds like he will share
Dave Clarke:it. But there's no real blemish on his record. Now. His perspective
Rayshawn Buchanan:was No, I mean, we already talked about it me has my skills were below average. But other than that, no, but from a from a technical standpoint, everything else No, he
Dave Clarke:was is my skills might have been below average, but his showmanship is good.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Yeah, I mean, like you said, Dave, I can tell. So he got pissed off. And I said, you know, they took off the handcuffs like, you know, let's say that that promo he cut when it was like everyone's turning a blind eye, vicious turning a blind eye like that. That was great because they let him be him and he likes that he was pissed off because
Michael Marcangelo:he said delta E meant that's
Dave Clarke:not why I loved Brett though for me
Rayshawn Buchanan:not. Right, right. I'm saying I'm saying like, part of the part of the character. This is what any wrestler, like part of the character is how you deliver things on the mic. Right? So Totally, yeah, it's only you can only go so far with your wrestling ability, right? And I can argue there's no one that's gotten more out of this wrestle ability then Bret Hart right, but you have to have both because you have to have something that and he was a lot better in promos when he had the sunglasses and the belt and the jacket and he could be a little bit quieter. And that was kind of his image and
Dave Clarke:when he had to do it in the ring, I do agree that he you know, without anything, any of that stuff on and that is where it counts. Obviously like anybody can cut a promo you get 20 takes on it. But when he had to do a live I do agree that it Yes. He was subpar. For sure.
Michael Marcangelo:I think Brett always fell into the category of he was not someone who could talk you into the building. But if you were talking to the building, you saw him wrestle. You'd come back again, the same Russell
Dave Clarke:remains in the advertisement. He was the product. Yeah,
Michael Marcangelo:yeah. But john could talk you in. And Andy was the end. I agree. I agree. And he was it was a great worker. So the stage has been set. Brett has creative control. The the event is Survivor Series, it's going to be in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. The world rescue. We're here. We're here. A World Wrestling Federation Championship match will be between Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart 18 months in the making. I mean, this short, they literally didn't have to do any promos before they did, but they shouldn't have because the story told itself, right? We all wanted to see this match. And leading up to it. Vince said to Brett, we're gonna have Shawn go over. And Brett said no, that's not i'm not going to lose the shot. And first of all, I'm not going to lose the shot number one. Number two,
Dave Clarke:I don't want to drop the belt. Like I was number one. I hate to quit with you. But number one was I don't want to lose in Canada.
Michael Marcangelo:Which again, it's a it's a it's a scripted sports entertainment product. So like, again, he cares about the wrong things. What is What is it? What is a mark for himself? Number one, so I don't want to lose in Canada. I don't want to lose this, Shawn. Vince said okay, well, what if we get the belt off you before? He said no. Because I've been advertised as the champion and pay per view, which is fair. So So basically, Vince gives all these different options to Bret and Shawn. None of them are being easy, and none of them are agreeing with each other. And ultimately, Brett suggested Well, why don't we just do like a smallest finish? And like, well, I'll drop the belt or I'll just walk into raw in Ottawa the next day and give me the belt.
Dave Clarke:No, no, no, it wasn't in Ottawa. It was the it wasn't on there. No, it was the next Monday Night Raw in the US that he said he would drop the boat. It was the following week and that he would he said it was the it was it was the next Yeah, it was the next Monday night Ron it was I think in Madison Square Garden and Vince didn't want to pay the 40 grand to tape it or whatever. It
Michael Marcangelo:was not the raw after Survivor Series but the raw after the rock just I think so
Dave Clarke:I could be wrong about this. And and like, you know, we agreed beforehand, not to not to sit here like Google stuff. But like, I think I think it was he agreed to do it because he was now you might be right that he was making it up but he just didn't want to lose it to Sean, but I think he said I'll do it in a I'll do it in the net at the next American date.
Michael Marcangelo:Not to Sean though.
Dave Clarke:I know. It was like to the what was that guy's name? The Bronx bomber? The Brooklyn brawler. What was that? No, no, no, no, he
Michael Marcangelo:was kidding. Okay, so I know what you're talking about. He said he would much rather lose to the Brooklyn brawler and Madison's right, but it was his it was it? Yeah. But he said he'd go in and drop the belt on that night, just like Sean had done with a safe knee injury. Just so you know. The Brooklyn brawler was a mid card. Right admit Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he was right.
Dave Clarke:You're right. But But he did say that he would go in and drop it the same way. Shawn dropped it with his fake semi fake knee injury. Right. And,
Michael Marcangelo:but the problem is here, Shawn wasn't leaving for the competitor. Brett one was didn't want to leave for the competitive
Dave Clarke:everything to not leave for the competitor. Not well,
Michael Marcangelo:but he was he was and he was leaving. And as we did touch upon a couple minutes ago, the WWF at that time had already seen their champion of a division walk over to WCW and drop a belt in the trash. I first of all, let me just tell you this I don't think Brett would have done it. I don't think Brett
Dave Clarke:absolutely wouldn't have you absolutely wouldn't have and I'll tell you something else WCW was in no position to do that again they were in the they were balls deep in litigation over the characters that you would already just mentioned that had that diesel Yeah, diesel and razor that had left that WTF who's suing them over stealing those likenesses? Maybe
Michael Marcangelo:wF lost that lawsuit by the way
Dave Clarke:does it but at the time, they're they're knee deep in this stuff. And it's their like heat the what was the guy's name that Brent did all the deals with that. I never did any of the WWE WCW I never watched any of it. What was the refresh off? Bishop was saying he would absolutely wouldn't have done that. Again, he was in no legal position to do that. That was Vince's paranoia. Because Vince thinks that everyone else is as much of a piece of shit as minces.
Michael Marcangelo:Well, a couple of things. Whenever faceoff came over to came over to WWE, he did an interview and said, I understand why Vince would think that I can tell you it never crossed my mind. I don't know if you believe me. Yeah, he understands why Vince would think that because he understands how Vince thinks and Vince is paranoid that everyone sucks as much as Vince does. No finish here in this match. Right. So there's a meeting at a hotel room with Vince McMahon.
Dave Clarke:We left out by the way, I just did a quick interesting aside when Bret Hart legitimately beat the shit out of Shawn Michaels.
Michael Marcangelo:The
Rayshawn Buchanan:night before he made before the match in the match when he when he
Michael Marcangelo:it's been heavily disputed. It's Well, I
Dave Clarke:mean, I think I think the case was that everybody was pretty aware that if any if they really did ever fight, yeah, that that Brett would win. And he went But anyway, the famous the thing that nobody disputes. I mean, Jim cornette you know, who we all love, I would hope right Jim cornette is I mean, hate, love hate, right? Love hate, but I mean, he's you've laughed at things. He said,
Unknown:Oh, yeah, absolutely. And a lot of names,
Dave Clarke:famously says says, I mean, I'm paraphrasing here, but Paris famously said like, Brett came back and beat the brakes off. Shawn Michaels couldn't wit cream in a dairy factory. But they all but but famously, hair got pulled out. Shawn Michaels lost a clump of hair. And Orton has the hair I hear. Like so hear from that night? Yeah, that's what I that's the rumor on the street. Yeah, but there weren't that many people there. But then Shawn Michaels famously went into Vince's office and you know complain about a safe work environment. You got a crazy guy work in here whatever. So I just wanted to say that in lead up it's the the situation is not sports entertainment tense. This is the situation is life tense at this point. Yeah. They went through a wall fighting each other like yes. Okay, cool.
Michael Marcangelo:Go. So this is all over the animasi is real that, you know, there was I thought, you know, we could touch on this, but I'll just say like, there were references made by Bret Hart to the way that Shawn conducted himself in the ring that he that he appeared to be stripping with and bringing little boys into the ring to pose at him, Shawn then and the next week on Ross,
Rayshawn Buchanan:made out of them having
Michael Marcangelo:an affair with sunny days made the sunny days comment, which, for all the for those of you that don't know Sonny was a was a valet WWF at the time she made. She made her way around the locker room. It is You did? There's no stories. She was actually involved with Shawn Michaels at the time. So Sean made made the comment just really to piss bread off. Cause 10
Dave Clarke:words because he went home and his wife was like, WTF mate.
Michael Marcangelo:Yes. Right. So now it's night, it's the night before. Okay, and we're going to try and go through this as fast as possible. It's a it's a Vince, Shawn, Triple H, and Joe brisco in a room talking about how this match is going to go. And Vince literally says, You know, I don't know what's going to happen like we we just I can't let him leave with the belt. And Shawn famously said, like, what are we talking about here? And Triple H said, and I quote, fuck him. If he won't do business do business for him.
Dave Clarke:That's a funny thing to hear from from Mr. Curtain Call. By the way, I just just just to pop out here. I mean, to have Triple H to do what I what I think is one of the worst displays of professionalism in the history of sports entertainment. coming out with that curtain called bullshit. He was still getting punished at the time for this by the way he
Michael Marcangelo:was being buried. Yeah.
Dave Clarke:And the only reason that he got back in we all know this. I mean, this we're getting into high school gossip here, but the only reason he got back into Vince's good graces because he married his damn daughter.
Michael Marcangelo:That was in 2003.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, but I mean, they're they're already having an affair by this point. I
Michael Marcangelo:think that wasn't identified.
Dave Clarke:Okay, well, maybe they texted I don't know. But I don't even think texting was a thing. Yeah, it was.
Rayshawn Buchanan:They were paging each other.
Michael Marcangelo:He was still. He was still having a few nights in China at this point. Rip. Oh, yes,
Dave Clarke:yes. Okay. Anyway, back to the back to the back to reality. Whoops, there goes gravity. Here's the thing. Triple H shouldn't have had a voice in that room. Okay, so maybe vote maybe. And I don't really think you should have voice in rooms right now. But the are you Triple H am I? Yeah.
Unknown:I mean, you both are
Dave Clarke:cheese, calm, and I'm in a hot room right here. And he
Michael Marcangelo:single handedly rebuilt their entire developmental division and made it into a brand that actually draws money when it tours.
Dave Clarke:Eventually, eventually once he was given like his third and fourth chances, so
Michael Marcangelo:When he was champion, it was terrible went from 2000 3000 to 3006. It was called the Oh god, it was it was the reign of terror and it was bad.
Dave Clarke:Yeah. And and the curtain call, you know, and I know that wasn't his fault. And
Michael Marcangelo:that was that was Sean's fault and triple eight the shit for it.
Dave Clarke:Yeah. And he's the one who got punished because Sean was the champion, he wasn't gonna get punished. The guys that were on the way out couldn't get punished. So you know, triple eight, the shift four, but he went around and did a bunch of disingenuous apologies about it and whatever I like I just I wouldn't I wouldn't co sign a mortgage with Triple H it's all I'm saying. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them which is not very far. So Triple H planted the bugs what you're saying he planted the bug and Vince McMahon's head about maybe we screw him over.
Michael Marcangelo:So at this point in time, that was the call was okay. We'll do it. We just don't know when. So what so that now Shawn Michaels is put into the the, I would say the worst possible place to be. And Montreal, Quebec, Canada, with in the name of the guy who can clearly beat you up.
Dave Clarke:I mean, Sean? Oh, yeah, they're worried he was gonna actually get his ass kicked that night.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah. So Gerald brisco, who's an old school wrestling wrestler and promote her and help her with the WWF at the time was was showing Shawn moves about how to shoot wrestle just put into a spot where he couldn't get out. So Shawn has famously said, like, it's one thing to be the person that says this is going to happen. It's a whole nother thing to be the guy that has to go out there and do it. Right. And so before the match Breton, Sean me, and Brian actually said, No, I really hope that, you know, this is a great match. I do want to say like, above all else, I really enjoy working with you. I'm sorry that I got as bad as it did. And they actually had a great conversation and they they actually patched it up.
Dave Clarke:Which is why the famous footage in wrestling with shadows. Brett's like, come on, man, you know, and Sean's like, absolutely not, which we now know is a lie. But he's like, absolutely non brides. Like, I don't believe you, but like, whatever. You know, we had this talk beforehand, whatever. I'm gonna go take a shower. But yeah, I mean, and that could have been the moment that they finally patched it up, if it wasn't for Vince McMahon, but whatever.
Michael Marcangelo:They had this come to Jesus moment, and then they went over the match and they said, Okay, well, about 30 minutes into the match. What's gonna happen is Shawn's gonna lock me up into the into the sharpshooter, the referees gonna take a bump, dx is gonna run down, then the Heart Foundation is gonna run down. It's gonna be a double dq. That was the time and Sean's head where he said, that's where we do it. That's where we have the the turn happen. That's where we have the bell rang, when nobody
Dave Clarke:knew. Nobody knew what was gonna happen. You know, like the guys in the gorilla position. Didn't know, you know, the guys who were supposed to be doing the QA for those at home. The guys sitting behind the curtain cueing the surprise wrestlers to come into the gorilla position that those guys didn't know the truck didn't know. Or I think maybe one guy in the truck maybe knew Kevin Dunn. Kevin Yeah, Kevin. He knew he was like
Michael Marcangelo:the way he's the worst possible human being and in the history of the wrestling business, but that's a whole other podcast. Okay, so Earl Hebner is a referee Earl Hunter is probably the most famous referee in WWF history or wrestling history because of this. And he's pulled. He's pulled aside by I believe it was Vince or someone in gorilla saying, When Shawn locks it and call for the bell. So that's it. They go up, Brett had gone to him be prior? Yeah. So Brett,
Dave Clarke:you're not gonna screw me. Right? Like, we're good.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Buddy, I promise I wouldn't do it. I'm not going to do it. You come out there. And, you know, he hops off. And it was I have to give my take on this. And we talked about this before. And I'm analyzing, we talked about how Scott Scott Hall and some others have felt, um, I just, I still can't fit a life and be understand. How do you let him put him in your own finishing move? Right. let that happen? Don't you can't let that happen? Not in your hometown. Where you know, you're on the way out like, don't come on.
Dave Clarke:I actually have two arguments for this. And I and I think it's the linchpin of my argument for it. Because what you're saying is what everyone's been saying to Brett for the last 30 years, how could you not have known? How could you not have known what they were going to do? This is why people think it was a it was a recipe
Michael Marcangelo:if you suspected it?
Dave Clarke:Yeah. If you suspect it If he did, because he did suspect because he put a wire on himself and went and talked to Vince beforehand to get to get it all on tape. He if he if he thought it was a work or the people that think it was a work, think it has to be work for that reason, because Brett had to have known he's not an idiot. He's a little bit of an idiot about some stuff, but he's not an idiot about this stuff, right? Like he has two reasons. I'll tell you the two reasons number one, the and this is like not from the internet. This is a genuine dk sisel heartache, not the first one but the second one. The first one is he was boys with the ref the ref said now he swore in his kids. He swore in his kids that he would that he was not going to call the fight against Brett and Brett. The running theme of this is that Brett takes people at their word and he shouldn't. Number two and this is the most important one and this is the thing I've noticed in all my research on this on the Montreal screwjob. Today, the sharpshooter is not a pin. It's a submission. You have to tap to the sharpshooter, you have to go I'm done. I am in pain. So there's no worry in Brett's head that he's gonna it's up to him to lose to the sharpshooter?
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, a couple of things played into into Brett Favre, right like
Dave Clarke:yeah, totally in the sharpshooter all you want. I'm not gonna sit on and and I'll say this and this is the most annoying part about the Montreal screwjob. Shawn Michaels fucks up the sharpshooter. right he doesn't even do it right
Unknown:for how to correct them.
Dave Clarke:And Brett corrects him in the move. Yep. And as he's doing a nice thing, correcting him. Ding Ding Ding, you know, and so Brett was all into, it's not even a real screw job. He didn't give up. They rang the bell with referees. You put it's not even a real he didn't even really win the match. I've never heard anyone say this. It's not a pain. His shoulders aren't on the ground. Right? for three seconds. He didn't give up
Michael Marcangelo:the record books will will look and say that Brett gave up. He didn't
Rayshawn Buchanan:know he didn't on Michael's one, the belt via adji at the end of the day rescue and pride.
Dave Clarke:How are you going to let them you ask? How are you going to let them How are you? And I mean, listen, that was a great line. And it was it was genius piece of PR. There's no beating Vince McMahon a public relations. Okay. And Brent should have not bred Bret Hart should have known that. But Bret Hart felt comfortable getting into his own submission because it wasn't a pain because he knew he
Michael Marcangelo:was going to tap it. He knew the referee couldn't fast count it right. He was old into a false sense of security for two different reasons. One, Pat Patterson helped to put the match together. And he and pat he asked Pat, Pat said no, because they they consciously did not tell parish and what was going to happen by the way, rest in peace of the first ever champion Pat Patterson. But he was a he was a bright guy. So they didn't tell him on purpose. And it will happen. It was a bright guy. And they told him right before he ran out to the ring. They basically threatened his job. Right. And so if you don't do this, you're out.
Dave Clarke:No, they did. They said they're gonna fire him. Yeah, if he didn't do it. Yeah.
Michael Marcangelo:So, by the way, like, what what gets lost in this entire discussion is that this match was really good. It was it was actually it was. It was Yeah, it was. Yeah, but the 12 minutes that I mean, it was a real fight. If you if you if you talk about like the NX to the tension of the built in WrestleMania 12 go back and watch this one because it was legit. This looked like it felt like a big fight and look like a real fight. Don't watch the MDR know what happened and even even in like, once again,
Rayshawn Buchanan:I'm big. I'm big on crowd reaction, right? I'm not sure cuz me I've been I mean, I've been to a couple of wrestlemanias I've mentioned some of the favorite views. I'm not sure there's ever been more animosity in one building than that night. Like, it didn't matter. Everly it didn't matter whether that was
Dave Clarke:in the know. They knew what they knew what had happened. There was a there was a section eliminated.
Rayshawn Buchanan:They wanted a one is Shawn to get his ass beat dog.
Dave Clarke:I thought they were gonna be chunky.
Michael Marcangelo:I mean, he I mean, I mean, he wiped his ass with it.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Yeah, yeah. Which I'm surprised no one brought that up. So now, I mean, when I when I watched it, I was like, yo, like, beautiful. He'll move by the way. Yeah. But I'm like, Wow, great. I'm like you white. That can't do the Canadian. I say I say in between your legs. And I'm like, wow. And he's gone. He's sneezing on it. I'm just like, wow, like, I mean, I thought I thought I thought the America running otsu was crazy, windstorm and Christian. But I mean, oh, my god that that was that was that compares that as a pillow comparison to what Shawn Michaels did that night coming out to the ring. And I mean, if the crowd could have literally jumped over the gate, and just held him in between the rings and just like Brett just deal on him, then they would have because there was not a person in that building. Looking for Shawn Michaels to be victorious tonight at all. Like it's unbelievable. And I missed those separate crowds in wrestling. Like we'll never get that back. And if anything that's more criminal than the actual screwjob because when those crowds are on fire like that, there's nothing like it man.
Dave Clarke:Am I just like a crowd at this point? Forget a kind of crowd just a crowd would be great.
Michael Marcangelo:So I mean, what is everyone knows what happens at the end like Vince says ring the fucking Bell, right? Or 100 rings it they all and there
Dave Clarke:was some sort of there was some sort of this has just popped into from my subconscious there was some sort of reason Vince was standing next to the ring that he made up right or am I just making that up like Why was Ben's right next to them?
Rayshawn Buchanan:unusual? So I was so so this this Yeah. So right so I think this is where this is where I think if you're Brett, you have to know so she's about to go down write
Michael Marcangelo:it down. So
Rayshawn Buchanan:why why why are you even down and you're not you're not doing you're not doing commentary anymore now
Michael Marcangelo:first time for the first
Rayshawn Buchanan:time first timers, you know, so now your your the, you know, the Mr. McMahon character starting to kind of come about and really that's where that's where it really began. So think he had this in his head already. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that that's what I'm saying. I feel like that's what I'm saying. Like, it was like, that's why I think it was at work. I'm just like, yo, like, if you're down there, he's by the sidelines. He's not getting to get a ringside seat. He owns the ship, he gets it wherever he wants to say, and you know, and we all know Vince has control freak nature. He sits in your robe, and he sits there and he man's the whole show. Like that's just that's just what he does. So for him to be down there by ringside. He had to know. Okay, this is going to get ugly. I'm out had been news gonna go That's why he bolts out of the ring. And he ran out of the building that fast. Mick Foley was pissed off and you know, basically took us motivator
Dave Clarke:takers takers the biggest takeaway because right in the hallway afterwards, this is why I love taking forever. And I know we're all on a we're recording this like, what a week after he's kind of officially retired. I mean, but and we're all in an emotional taker kind of moment. But I was doing, you know, my Montreal screwjob due diligence today. And the moment you hear that takers storming down the hallway has very little to do with this whole thing. And it's stormed down the hallway to go find Vince McMahon to go You better go talk to that guy, because he's one of the boys. You know, like takers, always one of the boys and why he's the goat really like, you know, I mean, he's not my favorite of all time, but he's number two, for sure. Because Brett, but yeah,
Rayshawn Buchanan:I mean, everyone respects take her and say, yeah, yeah, you respect his opinion. So, um, and I mean, to be honest, he ran that locker room for years. So 100%, whatever, essentially, whatever he said, essentially really went you know, not triple Eight's not not so much. You know, no, but I mean, but people really think that because of, you know, his family tie, so to speak, so, but that, that that wasn't that was not the case. So, um, there was so much backlash from from that and, you know, everyone wants to answer they want to know what the hell was going on, on aina. But said, this is credit, you know, because back there, you know, who they are, you know, I'll let them I'll let them knock me out. And you know, why we were there during the shower during rush in the shower.
Michael Marcangelo:If you're still here, you're
Rayshawn Buchanan:here to knock them out, you know, and he's like, you know, then, you know, he says, he's like, I can't believe I'm gonna, you know, hit this man in the face. And, you know, he, you know, he knocks him out. And, you know, the rest was history, they move on from there. But, um, I mean, granted, it sucks that they even had to happen, because I said, obviously, he should have, he should have still been that Babe Ruth, he should have been that guy. He should have been here forever. He should have been into Johnson that category should have been in the Steve Austin category. But you know, he end up going to WCW and it was just like, yo, like, this is this is awful, because he's one of the best that we've ever seen. And it's a sour ending for everybody because of how you're putting you know, you're putting this on live TV. So it was it was just bad all the way around,
Dave Clarke:man. Just curious. I'm just curious about why did Brett screw Brett? I just
Rayshawn Buchanan:like it already. Like Vince is just a master, you know, public militia person, but they're additionally why I could say this. They'll say it's a work. There's no way and like Scott Hall said, Scott Scott Scott Hall saw this as well. He does no way. Vince at that time, especially when they're losing the WCW. And you see Brett go w. c. w on
Dave Clarke:they cut the mics on his
Rayshawn Buchanan:pay per view. Like there's no everybody knew everybody knew he was going to there's no way that he will allow that to happen. So it was
Dave Clarke:at that point, he was just trying everything to do because he was emotional. And he just gotten screwed over and he would crash
Rayshawn Buchanan:breaking. He's breaking apart the the TV sets I mean, I was like,
Michael Marcangelo:and that was not that wasn't on TV. Yeah.
Rayshawn Buchanan:Right. Spit on it. Which I mean now seeing it now and listen, say what you want about Vincent Say what you want about how that went down? Um, and we saw this in oh five where a rumble when, you know, he blew his quads running into the rink and he was mad about the finish, if you will. So it was hilarious though. But honestly, I
Dave Clarke:would I would rather die than get some have somebody spit in my face. Right.
Rayshawn Buchanan:But our they came into serving at that moment. And I'm sorry at that moment. I forget it. Forget it. I'm the boss. Forget it. I'm mister Big Man, you know, I'm first okay man, damn it long coming in the ring. And we're just going to go at it like if I lose, yeah, we're the only hands that monkey there's nothing.
Dave Clarke:And I will say, I want to know what an insane you know, at that point you have Bret Hart, you know, multi multi time champion, a second generation wrestler, he's got all these accolades Little did we know, he's one of the most accurate spitters I've ever seen in my entire life. That was like a sniper. It was a bull's eye. I couldn't believe it, you know, especially when you and you know, we've all we've all been in different athletic situations. And you're, you know, your saliva is unpredictable when you're trying to spit on the court or on the field. But damn Dude, that was like a laser beam. You know, he bought all the upgrades in spitting that night. That was crazy.
Michael Marcangelo:So a little bit of the aftermath here because I want to get back to our last point. Shawn Michaels braces back in a casket match a little over two months after this match against Undertaker Knights 98. He can only wrestle one more match in the next five years. Let's see Brett debuts on on WCW night show the next night after Survivor Series what is instantly mishandled. He then sustains a career ending concussion at the hands of Bill Goldberg in 1999. With a untell graft kicked to the face. You'll kick Yeah, it was awful. WTF goes on to overtake WCW in the ratings war, after losing 82 straight weeks WCW was purchased by WWF in 2001. And after he you know after Shawn Michaels is on his way to recovery. He obviously for those of you that are listening to this know that he is a born again Christian. He admits that in May of 2002 on an episode of WWE confidential that he was in on the screwjob. But he was ordered not to disclose that information. And that was the burden that really just kind of keeps him up at night. He then four months later goes on to return to WWE after four year absence and two back surgeries he was never medically cleared to return but wrestled for another eight years. Brett suffers a stroke due to due to symptoms of the concussion that he sustained at the hands of Goldberg No, no
Dave Clarke:is a bike accident.
Michael Marcangelo:Hold on, he fell off his bike that but the doctors did say that that that the concussion that he sustained was never was was was never treated the way it should have been treated. Oh, gotcha. He receives a call in the ICU from none other than Vince McMahon saying like, Brett, you're gonna you're gonna come back from this. We're gonna figure this out. Everything's gonna be okay. Like you're you just have to get back to being you. And Brett went on to say I know you do your research. Okay, that that that that call was very inspiring to him.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, because Bret Hart is the kind of guy that wants doesn't want real conflict with the people that he cares about.
Unknown:So once we locked,
Dave Clarke:yeah, I mean, you can frame it that way. But he made an effort multiple times as we discussed on the show with Shawn Michaels to bury the hatchet and Shawn wouldn't do it because Shawn was obsessed with Sean. Sean thought he should be number one. And didn't matter in what capacity Brett was there if Brett was ever there. He couldn't be number one that was and he wasn't wrong about that. Brett made an effort. Even on the night of the screwjob to bury the hatchet with Shawn. Brett doesn't like to be in conflict with people. He's not a grudge holder. He's Canadian For God's sake. He took Vance's apology with character and grace, like I would expect Bret Hart to. and Vince may may not may not have said I'm sorry. But him reaching out was enough for Brett and and that's that's
Michael Marcangelo:really what does it say to Vince his character that he did reach out to a guy that had not been under contract in five years, and he really didn't have any he had no reason to do it.
Dave Clarke:It's such a strange, he's such a strange guy, man. I mean, he's in in one moment, he'll be doing the worst thing you've ever seen. And then in another moment, he's the most charitable dude in the world. I think that isn't my own. My easy he isn't. He definitely is enigma. I think that my best guess. And this is pure speculation about Vince McMahon is that he does care about his guys, and he wouldn't be good at his job if he didn't. And he's been put in situations where based on his values and his ethics. He's had to choose the business over the person a few times. Now, I don't think when it comes to the screwjob he did the right thing. But I think in because of everything that made Vince McMahon Vince McMahon up until that point, he did the right thing for him. You know, from his perspective. He felt backed into a corner he was paranoid about the belt going to the WCW. He didn't Somebody had just been able to take him away from the situation and send said to him on what planet has
Unknown:been all really all, all of them.
Dave Clarke:I mean, they're all so close to the situation. And looking back, I just wish someone had been able to show Vince, what planet is Bret Hart gonna take your title and bring it to the WCW He did everything he could to stay here. He said, Vince, give me a reason to stay. Please, please give me a reason to stay.
Rayshawn Buchanan:I am forever grateful that it happened. Because if it does not happen, we don't get the offset error. I just go and get the rocky like,
Dave Clarke:I disagree with this. If because if you look at how Brett if you look at how Brett's contract was structured, he would have had another we missed out to me we missed out on another great match with stone cold because their chemistry was off the charts. That you know we missed it we missed out on on on Brett. Like Mike said finally put in stone cold over. We missed out on I
Michael Marcangelo:don't know if that ever would have happened but
Dave Clarke:I think it would have happened. What's your opinion on the rock and and? And Hulk Hulk Hogan? What's your opinion on that match?
Rayshawn Buchanan:I thought WrestleMania 18 that I mean to me Well, I mean, I'm I'm a little biased. Like I love the rock. Um, I do too. But once again, as a wrestler, by the way, yeah,
Dave Clarke:right. He does. He could he's not fit to lace around sports sneakers, boots when it comes to actual stars, but as a wrestler,
Rayshawn Buchanan:but no, I mean, WrestleMania 18. And I said, well get into that guy. I kind of feel like this is gonna be your sort of a rivalry podcast, so I'm putting that plug out there. I'm that rockin Hogan at WrestleMania 18. In Toronto. That was also an it was at the skydome um, that was another crowd that was just super white hot but I mean, I love that that match in the you know, it was icon versus icon and you're super
Dave Clarke:predictable there, right? Because you knew that.
Rayshawn Buchanan:No, I mean, I didn't I didn't I didn't think because once again we talked about you said that he made that mistake for Hogan before and in the early 90s like I wouldn't have been shocked that they have put Hogan over even as a kid and they put Hogan over on well either what a rocket at that time.
Dave Clarke:You know my point is my point is is is that is is that if if they do what they're supposed to do with Brett and then you have a ready made and installed guy that can do that stuff for the company that can do that as we saw he could do that he did with stone cold elevate these superstars based on his name be the Babe Ruth of the company. Let him let him go and fulfill the role that he thought he could fulfill and he doesn't stand in the way of the Attitude Era then because what you're saying is oh if we don't have the screwjob and everyone seems to take this as as gospel if we don't have the screwjob then we don't have the Attitude Era why because
Rayshawn Buchanan:isn't it from hell that no it propelled it
Dave Clarke:okay, but it doesn't mean that that we already agreed tonight that that the reason that Stone Cold Steve Austin was so elevated was because of Bret Hart
Michael Marcangelo:evil Mr. McMahon character without the screwjob
Dave Clarke:I don't think that's as important and I think that in and you and Ray and even and even and even if even if even Ray admitted that that character was already in Vince's head so he could have just made the character anyway
Michael Marcangelo:yeah, but how do you make a character if you like so the reason that the character took off so quickly in the WWE over overcame WCW was because
Dave Clarke:because he legitimately had legitimately screwed something that's outside of the purview and the end the the ethics and the values of sports entertainment though
Rayshawn Buchanan:but I'm gonna push back to you Dave cuz I've met you made the same earlier this show and when it comes out, I hailed is a baby face that baby Faith is the heel in this man. Yeah, and if not in real life. Is that is that it wasn't real life but
Michael Marcangelo:what well, what happened in real life propelled what was being scripted,
Rayshawn Buchanan:right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I'm saying like he becomes he becomes the hero. He becomes the hero and then you know, everyone he becomes the boss everyone hates and people keep watching every week. That's what happened.
Dave Clarke:That's exactly what happened. I that is what happened but i think i don't think that that means that they couldn't have done the Attitude Era in a similar way with similar characters with Brett not getting screwed over I think people take it as gospel that it took that screw job to make that happen. I just don't agree with that. All the factors were in place already. So I don't hold was already there who's the face of the Attitude Era? Stone Cold sonko who who made stone cold as we talked to earlier, Bret Hart. You know, we missed out on a great match. We missed out on the rematches stone cold and Brett man where
Michael Marcangelo:I would implore you to go back and watch the very serious 96 also Britain lose but what I would say is like what we
Dave Clarke:missed out on Brett losing a stone cold that would have been his big loss. That would have been a loss that he could take in his heart. He knows I know it I know it I know it
Michael Marcangelo:the Attitude Era did not need the screwjob to happen for for that show to take place but because it happened and took place sooner I'll also say as Brett was not a fan of where wrestling was going right so he would have been a staunch rival to actually the product and where it was going he did not like the creative direction he didn't like all the
Dave Clarke:character though.
Michael Marcangelo:So yeah, but he liked it also like he okay this is another tangent he likes Stone Cold he liked the rock it pretty good
Dave Clarke:character okay the only two people that matter the Attitude Era so
Michael Marcangelo:let's say the Undertaker and degeneration
Dave Clarke:of the undertaker was already The Undertaker so that's he wouldn't had an issue with take or take you could have done whatever you wanted. If Brett
Michael Marcangelo:doesn't if the script doesn't happen there is no Austin Austin and Michaels don't face off at mania there's no mike tyson in it mike tyson isn't aligned with dx and then and then turns on dx at the end of the match to give Austin the belt that moment when jr says in Boston Massachusetts was not there but was able to skip school the next day because my boy lost the man at that gym. Stone Cold Stone Cold Stone Cold like that was it that was it and
Dave Clarke:but but but the assumption that it would have been worse is is not a correct assumption. I think that the snow
Rayshawn Buchanan:not that not that worse. It just went I just don't think it may not have been at the height that we would have been different. It would have been different. It would have been awful. Doesn't mean worst. Yeah, no, I agree. I'm just saying I just feel like that's such a nostalgic moment that it's so hard to say. Well, you take that
Dave Clarke:built on the back of an ethical dilemma. You know, it's built on the back of a screw job you deserve but
Rayshawn Buchanan:it was made for every member. You didn't
Dave Clarke:just we didn't though and you didn't you didn't just screw over anybody you screwed over a guy who from 1992 was the best company man that that you had to offer. he bailed you out of your Lex Luger from 1985
Michael Marcangelo:he was the best. Sure.
Dave Clarke:Great I mean he bailed he bailed you out of the steroids scandal he bailed you out of your Lex Luger bullshitty bailed you out of your diesel bullshit. he bailed you out of Shawn Michaels being a being a loony on the road. A little he? He did everything ever he was but he did everything that was ever asked of him except the last thing and that's the the brush we choose to paint him with?
Michael Marcangelo:Well, well, no. Okay, well, that's the brush that we choose to paint him with because he has a history of only of really, really thinking that wins and losses matter when you
Dave Clarke:know his character. Bret the Hitman Hart
Michael Marcangelo:can sustain a loss and it could
Dave Clarke:know it could sustain a loss but Bret the Hitman Hart losing to it wasn't you're making a broad he? Bret the Hitman Hart shouldn't have lost to Shawn Michaels that by that by that point at that he should have been able to relinquish the belt he should he he's right when he says I should have been able to relinquish the belt and leave he deserved that here and
Michael Marcangelo:so a couple things that just just to tie this up to Mike
Dave Clarke:has got to do it shit.
Michael Marcangelo:It's it's actual. That's another thing. So it's actually so after the bread suffers a stroke Vince calls them they do a DVD they do the Hall of Fame but Britain Brett is still nowhere to be seen on WWE television. It's actually WrestleMania 25 Shawn Michaels versus the undertaker, which is regarded as probably the greatest match in WrestleMania. History. Brett is on record of saying that he watched that match. And he was so proud of Sean and of Undertaker, that that made him want to come back to the WWE and fix things. So that we fast forward to January 4 2010. Bret, the Hitman Hart as a special guest host on Monday Night Raw. The first thing he does is call out Shawn Michaels. And they they did not speak to each other backstage, they made it a point to do that they text and said we'll just do it in the ring. And they both bury the hatchet it was over. So what was a 13 year saga at that point now a 23 year saga at this point, looking back on it, I'm gonna say to you I kind of know your answer. dks I want to save you for a second Ray, who was at fault for the screwjob
Rayshawn Buchanan:I I mean, I'm getting back into a corner. But I mean, I still have to say it was bright the only the only by default not because it's because he was leaving the company. So because he was leaving because there was so that already happened. You know, we talked about Vince fepto he was backed into a corner. Now granted, could he have handled things differently? Sure. But just just in that moment, who could have who to me deserves the lion's share because he was on the way out because he was someone that was a major part of the business but you know, couldn't just you know, it was as they said, that time honored tradition that when you leave the business you drop the belt on the way out. No ifs ands, buts about it. That's it. You know if you're gonna love your company guy, and that's what you do. So I have to I have to put that on Brett. I hate that it had to happen to such a great guy. But like I said, we got one of the best errors out of that. So thank you, Brett. But I have to put it on the hit my heart, but you're still the best delivers the best it was the best ever will be
Michael Marcangelo:TK, who's to blame?
Dave Clarke:He's not even the top five of blame. It goes. Vince is number one, Vince is probably also number two, Triple H is number three. URL, the ref is number four for lion Brett.
Unknown:And then
Dave Clarke:means again on number five. So
Michael Marcangelo:I guess for you like where what level of blame do you do you assign to Shawn Michaels in that moment?
Dave Clarke:There's no, there's no world in which I expect Shawn Michaels to react differently when he's presented. So if I know what I know about Shawn Michaels, his character about about who he was as a person in real life, like I that's, that's like asking the son at that point. So you know, it's it's, that is what it is. I'm not I'm not mad at Shawn because that, you know, that's just his dogs gonna holler. So at the end of the day,
Michael Marcangelo:give him any any credit for actually going out there and doing it.
Dave Clarke:Give him any credit
Michael Marcangelo:shot, because we think about it,
Dave Clarke:because he should have been afraid for his fucking life.
Unknown:Afraid for his life. The
Dave Clarke:rain makes a good point. And it's a it's a poignant point. And it's that, you know, it's it's tough to speculate what happened, what would happen after it's tough to speculate, whose fault it was, Vince was backed into a corner. The thing that always sticks out to me is that if Vince had have given Bret Hart the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn't have screwed him over back. So Vince screwed Bret because he thought Brett might screw him, but I'm 100% sure that he wouldn't have. And so are you, Mike? So nobody had to get screwed in that in that
Michael Marcangelo:I think Vince screwed Bret because he thought WCW would screw him.
Dave Clarke:Well, I'm really glad you finally said the word Vince screw Brett. So I guess that concludes the show. Because you've admitted that I'm right.
Michael Marcangelo:I think what happened was Vince screwing Brett, I think Vince by the way in which he painted himself and Shawn and Brett into a corner. Literally, he had no other option. But to do what he did.
Dave Clarke:I would just I would just say in summation of my point, Vince didn't have to give him the contract he gave him which put reasonable creative control.
Michael Marcangelo:But I think he did that with with good intentions.
Dave Clarke:Maybe but he didn't have to. He gave him reasonable creative control. He gave him the contract that he then wanted to get out of he reneged on the contract, he thought of the idea to screw him. he screwed him and and then Triple H also he should also he should get like the you know, the aiding and abetting charge I think. But, you know, he's the idea, man if it was a good thing, and they were gonna make a billion dollars off it. He'd want the he'd want the credit. Right? So he should get the blame. He thought of it
Michael Marcangelo:is it was a billion dollar idea. He did.
Dave Clarke:Yeah, take the credit not to blame, right. Yeah.
Michael Marcangelo:So obviously, you know, thank you so much. dk for joining this episode. So much fun.
Dave Clarke:Thanks for having me.
Michael Marcangelo:Yeah, I rayshawn you are great. As always, thank you so much. Try to create our the best in the business. Stay tuned for Episode Three of cheapy where we preview the upcoming Royal Rumble. We talked about our bait our best Royal Rumble memories, and we'll go on from there. So 40 cases will Dave Clark rushabh you can Craig D'Alessandro I am Michael Mark Angela signing off. This was Episode Two of GP. Thanks for listening to this episode of missing the point. This point is a one hour weekly podcast recapping the biggest stories in the world of sports within the lingo flavor. The show notes and transcript from today's show can be found in the description box below. As well as on our website, www dot MTP show.com. If you're new to the show, and like we heard, consider subscribing. It's the easiest way to see we publish new episodes. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Google and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to rate us and leave a review of any of our shows. We always appreciate your feedback. Let us know how we're doing and how we can sound better. Also, be sure to follow us on all of our social medias. All of our links will be in the show notes and check out our brand new website WWW dot MTV show.com that's MTP show.com. Follow us here at this point. I'm Craig D'Alessandro. We'll talk to you next time.